On Jan 29, 2009, at 1:03 PM, Azamat wrote: Each of us intelligent And each of us stupid Nobody is wisely all-knowing.
But some us know a lot more about some topics than others do. For example, I know very little about systems engineering. It is diffcult to judge a human being as an absolutely intelligent or unintelligent. For any person possesses two sides: smart and stupid. The same soul may be stupid, dull, dense, dim, slow, foolish, annoying or boring in one respect, in special fields, or in certain situations but alert, brainy and bright in some other respect, knowledge field or situation. Again, it is hard to say that all smartness is always better than all stupidity. Shrewdness (practical hardheaded intelligence) as craftiness (in politics, science, business) is socially more harmful than simple-mindedness and naiveness.
I won't argue with you about any of this. As for Paola, she has a beautiful mind open for fundamental learning and deep inquiry. Here is one impressive sample:''When we model reality in its depth and complexity, and look beyond systems boundaries, we realize that everything in the known universe is related to everything else, and that a few common elements constitute its substance , and a few universal axioms, determine the behavior of everything.''
I'm afraid that reads to me like the tritest of shallow platitudes. But my point was not about anyone's merits as a person or as a thinker, but simply as a participant in a technical forum. Ontolog forum isn't supposed to be a poetry forum or a place for essayists to wonder about the human condition. Everybody, especially the formal logician, must pay formal respects to women, which are few in the listing.
Hmm, Im not sure I agree that logicians have a special duty to avoid mysogyny; but I also don't feel that gender should play a role in these discussions one way or the other. Also I call formal logicians to avoid making such professional faults as the nastiest fallacy of relevance: the ad hominem argument (against the man, here nice intelligent woman, instead of attacking the issue itself).
The issue in this thread is entirely about people and their conduct in this forum. I would not bring these matters up otherwise. But let us leave this unproductive discussion for now.
Pat ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 10:28 AM Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Tighter control of ontolog forum?
On Jan 27, 2009, at 12:38 PM, Tolk, Andreas wrote: Paola and all, I think that someone who "deliberately and gratuitously insults other forum members" or "openly insult others'" violates not only the code of ethics but also the principles for professional conduct. Unfortunately, the level of education and the rank in academic institutions does not imply social or ethical maturity. I am quite sure that I am myself guilty of having insulted someone with my statements (maybe currently even am in the process of doing so), but the "deliberately and gratuitously" is what raises my concern. It is OK to openly discuss ideas, and there should be no limiting factor. If an idea is stupid or not of interest it will simply dry out over time. It is also OK to say - or better prove - that someone is wrong. No-one is served by something that is wrong. The open discussion has been the core of academic progress, and academic disputes are healthy for the discipline. However, it is not OK to attack others in an unprofessional way and to personally attack someone.
Of course not. However, if someone is clearly ignorant of the topic on which they are tirelessly communicating, and reacts to explanatory messages which are intended to inform with reactions which only demonstrate even deeper ignorance, without apparently being able or willing to admit to said evident ignorance, is it unprofessional to point out this ignorance, even in a public forum? I do not believe so. In fact, to the contrary. While there must be, in an interdisciplinary forum such as this, a willingness by all parties to reach across disciplinary boundaries, for example by trying to analyze divergent uses of technical terminology, such mutual processes of education will succeed only if all parties are willing to adopt a professional attitude to the discussion. Paula has, I regret to have to say, not yet exhibited any significant level of proficiency in any technical area relevant to ontologies, in any of her postings to the forum that I have read. I do not say this to insult her, but simply as a statement of fact. I am not alone in finding her presence here to be almost entirely disruptive and counterproductive. This is not a question of openness of discussion, or academic debate. For there to be debate, there must first be content to be debated. Of course it is OK to openly discuss ideas. Part of this openness, however, is to be able and indeed willing to observe, when someone apparently fails to grasp an idea, that they have failed to grasp it, and to have the maturity to react to such observations without making vague threats of libel suits. I would note, in passing, that in order to be libelous a statement must first be false. If anyone can show that my assertions about Paula, above, are false, I will withdraw them and apologize immediately.
Pat Hayes
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