ontolog-forum
[Top] [All Lists]

Re: [ontolog-forum] Current Semantic Web Layer Cake

To: "Peter F Brown" <peter@xxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: "[ontolog-forum] " <ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
From: Pat Hayes <phayes@xxxxxxx>
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 16:54:33 -0500
Message-id: <p06230920c2d55adf15e5@[10.100.0.67]>
>Duane:
>You are right. This goes to the heart of the 
>issue of "vicious circularity" that Whitehead 
>and Russell had thought was sorted with 
>Principia Mathematica, until Kurt Gödel came 
>along and demolished their shiny, perfect, world.    (01)

Um, please don't think I am being too picky here, 
but this assertion contains so many 
misunderstandings that I may not have time to 
list them all. Goedel's result has nothing to do 
with Russell and Whitehead's set theory, and 
neither of them have anything much to do with 
ontology or ontologies.  The shiny, perfect world 
that Goedel refuted was Hilbert's dream of a 
self-verifying formalization of mathematics which 
could prove itself consistent. Russell and 
Whitehead's Principia was a response to Russell's 
demolishing of Frege's naive set theory. Set 
theory is also a mathematician's dream, but a 
different one; and one that has not been 
demolished but in fact is, usually in the form of 
Zermelo-Fraenkel (Z-F) set theory rather than 
Russell & Whitehead's consistent but unworkable 
type theory (or even Ramsey's ramified type 
theory from six years later) still the widely 
accepted mathematical foundational language that 
is as near to consistent as anything can be. But 
in any case, ALL of this has to do with 
mathematics; and as Duane says, ontologies are 
usually taken to be about part of the real world, 
not the Platonic world of mathematics; and the 
question of how to ground such theories in the 
actual world (either of physical entities or of 
experiences) is not even remotely relevant to, or 
influenced by, such matters as axiomatic set 
theory or Goedel's second theorem.    (02)

By the way, Im not sure what you are referring to 
by "vicious circularity", but what links 
Russell's paradox and Goedel's undecideability 
result (and Turing's uncomputability theorem) is 
that they all derive fairly directly from the 
classical Liar paradox "This sentence is false", 
which itself is made possible only by 
self-reference. If this is what you mean, it also 
has nothing much to do with ontologies and their 
grounding.    (03)

>An ontology is not just some self-referencing 
>and self-sustaining model that is somehow 
>"complete"; it points out to the real world, as 
>you rightly say.
>
>Before there is a flame war on this, I should 
>underline that we discussed this extensively at 
>the Ontology Summit, and there was an 
>(uncomfortable for some) consensus that there is 
>"Ontology" as *the* study of being; and there 
>are "ontologies" that are domain-specific 
>encapsulations of some aspect of the real world.    (04)

This distinction between the original, 
philosophical, meaning of 'ontology' and its more 
recent, computer-science/IT/AI/KR/engineering 
meaning has been noted every since the second 
usage was coined, and should be familiar to 
everyone who has any opinion to express in either 
field. There is a Wikipedia disambiguation page 
devoted to it. If anyone feels "uncomfortable" 
about it, they need to get more comfortable as 
soon as possible, and preferably before sending 
any more emails on the topic.    (05)

Pat    (06)

>
>Peter
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
>[mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] 
>On Behalf Of Duane Nickull
>Sent: 31 July 2007 16:05
>To: [ontolog-forum]; John F. Sowa
>Cc: 'SW-forum'
>Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Current Semantic Web Layer Cake
>
>
>
>
>On 7/31/07 12:46 PM, "Azamat" <abdoul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>>  The real semantics or meanings of any symbolism or notation is defined by
>>  ontology; for this is the only knowledge domain studying the Being of
>>  Everything which is, happens and relates.
>
>Not trying to start a nit picky argument, but I had always thought that real
>semantics are defined by how a term is used and what it is linked to in a
>physical world (which of course can be captured and expressed in an
>ontology).  Otherwise any ontology is just a huge circular reference (like
>the english dictionary when void of any grounding.
>
>How can one define and convey the true meaning of spicy food, heat, pain etc
>without the corresponding grounding experience?
>
>Duane
>
>--
>**********************************************************************
>"Speaking only for myself"
>Blog - http://technoracle.blogspot.com
>Community Music - http://www.mix2r.com
>My Band - http://www.myspace.com/22ndcentury
>MAX 2007 - http://technoracle.blogspot.com/2007/07/adobe-max-2007.html
>**********************************************************************
>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Message Archives: http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontolog-forum/ 
>Subscribe/Config: http://ontolog.cim3.net/mailman/listinfo/ontolog-forum/ 
>Unsubscribe: mailto:ontolog-forum-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Shared Files: http://ontolog.cim3.net/file/
>Community Wiki: http://ontolog.cim3.net/wiki/
>To Post: mailto:ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Message Archives: http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontolog-forum/ 
>Subscribe/Config: http://ontolog.cim3.net/mailman/listinfo/ontolog-forum/ 
>Unsubscribe: mailto:ontolog-forum-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Shared Files: http://ontolog.cim3.net/file/
>Community Wiki: http://ontolog.cim3.net/wiki/
>To Post: mailto:ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>    (07)


-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
IHMC            (850)434 8903 or (650)494 3973   home
40 South Alcaniz St.    (850)202 4416   office
Pensacola                       (850)202 4440   fax
FL 32502                        (850)291 0667    cell
phayesAT-SIGNihmc.us       http://www.ihmc.us/users/phayes    (08)


_________________________________________________________________
Message Archives: http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontolog-forum/  
Subscribe/Config: http://ontolog.cim3.net/mailman/listinfo/ontolog-forum/  
Unsubscribe: mailto:ontolog-forum-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Shared Files: http://ontolog.cim3.net/file/
Community Wiki: http://ontolog.cim3.net/wiki/ 
To Post: mailto:ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx    (09)

<Prev in Thread] Current Thread [Next in Thread>