Dear Alex, (01)
Dear Matthew, (02)
Thank you very much for your patience and for clarification. (03)
I do apologise in advance if my comments can be considered as meaningless. I do
not have any formal education in philosophy,
[MW>] Neither do I!
and I might express opinions that were discussed and rejected centuries ago. (04)
In one of the previous emails you wrote that: ‘Identity is the relationship
something has with itself.’ And: ‘The critical thing is the identity
criteria that enables you two say two things are in fact one.’. (05)
Thinking about those statements raises plenty of questions in my mind, and
honestly I cannot find answers to satisfy my curiosity. For example, (06)
I am not quite sure about the word ‘you’ in the last quote. Does that
‘you’ mean an observer? or does it mean some ‘soul’/‘demon’ between
a thing and a (potential) group of observers, to ‘dictate’ that group what
kind of identity does the given thing has (as a ‘relationship with itself’)?
[MW>] "You" means "anyone". Something that exists has identity with itself
without any observer. When we observe things we need to be able to tell whether
two things we discover are the same as each other or different. For example: Is
Barak Obama the same thing as The President of the United States? Despite the
fact that they are coincident at the present time, I would say that they are
different, because if you trace them through space and time you find that they
are not coincident at all times when they exist. (07)
Internally, in my thoughts, I am moving from a question ‘what is an
identity?’ to a question ‘what an identity is for?’.
[MW>] On its own it is not really of interest, it is what results from it that
is important. (08)
If a thing exists without an observer (of that thing), does it require a
special identity? what for? how can it be used? And thinking about those
questions, I have doubts that a thing requires any dedicated/specific identity
at all…
[MW>] I think you are starting to confuse identity with identifier. An
identifier is a label an observer might give something for easy reference to
it. Nothing natural needs an identifier (some intentionally constructed objects
might need an identifier to exist, like a bank note). (09)
If there is an observer, will it be an observer’s decision how to define an
identity for a thing observed by the given observer?
[MW>] If you mean identifier, then yes. Note that there is no limit to the
number of identifiers different observers might give to the same thing.
However, it is only possible for observers to share information about that
thing if they share an identifier for it. (010)
If a thing does not have an identity (as internal property, or as internal
relationship to itself), how an observer makes a decision about an identity?
will that decision be governed by the context and the purpose of the
identification exercise?
[MW>] Yes. (011)
Matthew, I am not asking you to answer my questions directly. I might come
across some books or gradually reading different sources (including this email
group threads) I may get a better understanding.
[MW>] These are some very fundamental things that most people just take for
granted (but should not). (012)
BTW, thank you very much for a very interesting book (written by you on top of
ISO 15926 standard) and for contributions to this email group.
[MW>] Glad it is helpful.
Regards
Matthew (013)
Regards,
Alex (014)
> On 19 Jun 2015, at 21:48, Matthew West <dr.matthew.west@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> Dear Alex,
> You can certainly have such a class, but I don't think it is necessary. The
>critical thing is the identity criteria that enables you two say two things
>are in fact one.
> I don't think a grain of sand needs an observer to have identity. However,
>capturing data about the world will require an observer of some sort. I would
>consider some objects as "natural" that is they are reasonably well defined
>whether or not we exist. Cats dogs and grains of sand would be amongst them.
>However, there are also certainly plenty of intentionally constructed objects,
>like money and contracts and organizations that could not exist without our
>determination of their existence, and are what they are because we say so.
>
> Regards
>
> Matthew West
> http://www.matthew-west.org.uk
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alexander
> Titov
> Sent: 17 June 2015 11:42
> To: [ontolog-forum]
> Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] The "qua-entities" paradigm
>
> An identity - as a specific classification of a thing in a such way that the
>correspondent class has one and only one member?
>
> And I think that an identity seriously depends on a viewpoint and an observer
>who/which makes that identity ‘classification’.
>
> Regards,
> Alex
>> On 17 Jun 2015, at 10:25, Matthew West <dr.matthew.west@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Rich,
>> Each grain of sand exists in the real world and has identity, whether
>> or not you are interested in them. That is something entirely
>> different. A handful of sand is also something that exists in the
>> real world (the aggregate of the grains of sand whilst they are in
>> your
>> hand) and whether you care about that is also a different question.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Matthew West
>> Information Junction
>> Mobile: +44 750 3385279
>> Skype: dr.matthew.west
>> matthew.west@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> http://www.informationjunction.co.uk/
>> https://www.matthew-west.org.uk/
>> This email originates from Information Junction Ltd. Registered in
>> England and Wales No. 6632177.
>> Registered office: 8 Ennismore Close, Letchworth Garden City,
>> Hertfordshire,
>> SG6 2SU.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Rich
>> Cooper
>> Sent: 17 June 2015 06:49
>> To: '[ontolog-forum] '
>> Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] The "qua-entities" paradigm
>>
>> Are you saying that identity must *always* be *unique*? I can
>> identify a handful of sand at the beach without assigning an identity to
>each grain.
>> All grains look the same to me, therefore all sand has the same
>> identity, so I treat it as a unitless object, and the best I can do
>> to subdivide it is to organize it into specific volumes, weights and prices.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Rich Cooper,
>>
>> Chief Technology Officer,
>> MetaSemantics Corporation
>> MetaSemantics AT EnglishLogicKernel DOT com ( 9 4 9 ) 5 2 5-5 7 1 2
>> http://www.EnglishLogicKernel.com
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John F
>> Sowa
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2015 10:30 PM
>> To: ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] The "qua-entities" paradigm
>>
>> On 6/17/2015 1:12 AM, Rich Cooper wrote:
>>> you could say that the ID is the concatenated value of all
>> properties
>>
>> I was trying to explain that similarity is observable, but identity
>> is always an inference.
>>
>> It's irrelevant how you represent the properties or what conventions
>> you adopt for storing information about them.
>>
>> You still have to observe the patterns before you can *infer* whether
>> or not they determine a unique item.
>>
>> John
>>
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