Below, copied and pasted faithfully, is what MW said:
MW:
> Each grain of sand exists
in the real world and has identity, whether or not you are interested in them.
That is something entirely different. A handful of sand is also something that
exists in the real world (the aggregate of the grains of sand whilst they are
in your hand) and whether you care about that is also a different question.
>
> Regards
>
> Matthew
West
RC:
I agree that identity is something entirely different from
identifier. So yes, things exist whether I am there to observe them or
not. These existing things have identities. For example, a bunch of
them could have the same identity. I suggest we agree to name it
"sand". I'm not interested, and option out of developing
specializations of said sand. Only generalizations that include such
things as crystals, grains, suspensions (quicksand) and so forth are
interesting.
But the "identifier" is NOT the same as the "identity".
The identifier is only useful if some few instances of some few classes are to be
uniquely "identified", or "designated", by some function (e.g.,
by table lookup among pairs).
Can we agree
so far?
Sincerely,
Rich
Cooper,
Rich Cooper,
Chief Technology Officer,
MetaSemantics Corporation
MetaSemantics AT EnglishLogicKernel DOT com
( 9 4 9 ) 5 2 5-5 7 1 2
http://www.EnglishLogicKernel.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Pat Hayes [mailto:phayes@xxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 6:29 PM
To: Rich Cooper
Cc: [ontolog-forum]
Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] The "qua-entities" paradigm
On Jun 17, 2015, at 11:39 AM, Rich Cooper
<metasemantics@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Thanks Pat,
>
> for explaining your take on the idea, but we differ
again on this issue. Maybe if we keep this up another fifteen years, we
will agree on something. (:->)
>
> PH: NO, Rich, that is EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of what
Matthew said. Did you actually read his words? He said that the identity of
each grain of sand is IN THE REAL WORLD, WHETHER OR NOT YOU ARE INTERESTED IN
IT. He did not say that it depends upon your perspective. You and your
perspective could cease to exist, and the grains of sand would still be real,
in the real world, with their identities intact. The identities of things in
the real world do not depend upon your or anyone else's perspectives upon them.
They are, you see, REAL.
>
> RC: I find the view that something exists without
someone to experience it unsatisfyingly theoretical, Pat.
I was not trying to convince you of anything, nor
expressing "my take". I was making the point that you had completely
misquoted, or misunderstood, what Matthew actually SAID. Whether you agree with
what he said is another question altogether, and one I am not particularly
interested in; but unless you actually understand what others are saying, there
is little point in debating with them.
Pat
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