Thanks Pat,
for explaining your take on the idea, but we differ again
on this issue. Maybe if we keep this up another fifteen years, we will
agree on something. (:->)
PH: NO, Rich, that is EXACTLY
THE OPPOSITE of what Matthew said. Did you actually read his words? He said
that the identity of each grain of sand is IN THE REAL WORLD, WHETHER OR NOT
YOU ARE INTERESTED IN IT. He did not say that it depends upon your perspective.
You and your perspective could cease to exist, and the grains of sand would
still be real, in the real world, with their identities intact. The identities
of things in the real world do not depend upon your or anyone else's
perspectives upon them. They are, you see, REAL.
RC: I find the view that something exists without someone
to experience it unsatisfyingly theoretical, Pat. Like the tree falling
in the woods - does anyone hear it. I believe the tree makes a noise,
even if nobody is there to experience the noise.
Yet it is common practice to very deeply limit the things
we track to just those we are "interested in". So you can say
that the event of the tree falling and making noise is just not interesting to
anybody at that time, but it does exist.
Re the sand, I suppose you mean that a grain of sand that
I don't care about, which could be in Hawaii or Korea for all I know, has an
identity even though I never experience it.
So it seems necessary in ontology practice (i.e.,
building a DB system with sand particles IDed, or with bags of sand IDed), to
state that things exist even if my system has no knowledge of them? That seems
strange, as though you are drawing a distinction based on my beliefs, or my
system's built in construction, but then saying I am not in the picture at all,
and there is no other observer in the picture, yet the grain has an ID.
Can you somehow elaborate on that description? How
is an ID possibly in existence without any observer to ID it?
What would Einstein have said to the particular beam of
light he dreamed about when he believed he rode it and looked around to see the
effects of that relativity step? He observed in the dream, so that means
his beam of light has an ID all its own?
There is too much complication generated by separating
the observer from the phenomenon, IMHO.
Sincerely,
Rich
Cooper,
Rich Cooper,
Chief Technology Officer,
MetaSemantics Corporation
MetaSemantics AT EnglishLogicKernel DOT com
( 9 4 9 ) 5 2 5-5 7 1 2
http://www.EnglishLogicKernel.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Pat Hayes [mailto:phayes@xxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 10:35 AM
To: Rich Cooper
Cc: [ontolog-forum]
Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] The "qua-entities" paradigm
(I had vowed not to get involved in this, but...)
NO, Rich, that is EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of what Matthew
said. Did you actually read his words? He said that the identity of each grain
of sand is IN THE REAL WORLD, WHETHER OR NOT YOU ARE INTERESTED IN IT. He did
not say that it depends upon your perspective. You and your perspective could
cease to exist, and the grains of sand would still be real, in the real world,
with their identities intact. The identities of things in the real world do not
depend upon your or anyone else's perspectives upon them. They are, you see,
REAL.
Pat Hayes
On Jun 17, 2015, at 7:38 AM, Rich Cooper
<metasemantics@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Dear Matthew,
>
> So you are saying that the identity of sand depends
on your perspective, on the problem you are solving, or on the goals you
set. One grain of sand *could* have its own identity, but only if you are
interested in tracking all the grains of sand in your context.
>
> Yet I can identify sand in 20 pound bags with one
identifier - the one on the sand bag.
>
> Did I get your meaning right, Matthew, i.e., it all
depends on your own personal perspective, which states how you view the sand.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Sincerely,
> Rich Cooper,
> Rich Cooper,
>
> Chief Technology Officer,
> MetaSemantics Corporation
> MetaSemantics AT EnglishLogicKernel DOT com ( 9 4 9
) 5 2 5-5 7 1 2
> http://www.EnglishLogicKernel.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Matthew
> West
> Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 2:26 AM
> To: '[ontolog-forum] '
> Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] The
"qua-entities" paradigm
>
> Dear Rich,
> Each grain of sand exists in the real world and has
identity, whether or not you are interested in them. That is something entirely
different. A handful of sand is also something that exists in the real world
(the aggregate of the grains of sand whilst they are in your hand) and whether
you care about that is also a different question.
>
> Regards
>
> Matthew
West
> Information Junction
> Mobile: +44 750 3385279
> Skype: dr.matthew.west
> matthew.west@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> http://www.informationjunction.co.uk/
> https://www.matthew-west.org.uk/
> This email originates from Information Junction Ltd.
Registered in England and Wales No. 6632177.
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>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Rich
> Cooper
> Sent: 17 June 2015 06:49
> To: '[ontolog-forum] '
> Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] The
"qua-entities" paradigm
>
> Are you saying that identity must *always* be
*unique*? I can identify a handful of sand at the beach without assigning
an identity to each grain.
> All grains look the same to me, therefore all sand
has the same identity, so I treat it as a unitless object, and the best I can
do to subdivide it is to organize it into specific volumes, weights and prices.
>
> Sincerely,
> Rich Cooper,
>
> Chief Technology Officer,
> MetaSemantics Corporation
> MetaSemantics AT EnglishLogicKernel DOT com ( 9 4 9
) 5 2 5-5 7 1 2
> http://www.EnglishLogicKernel.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of John F
> Sowa
> Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2015 10:30 PM
> To: ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] The
"qua-entities" paradigm
>
> On 6/17/2015 1:12 AM, Rich Cooper wrote:
> > you could say that the ID is the concatenated
value of all
> properties
>
> I was trying to explain that similarity is
observable, but identity is always an inference.
>
> It's irrelevant how you represent the properties or
what conventions you adopt for storing information about them.
>
> You still have to observe the patterns before you
can *infer* whether or not they determine a unique item.
>
> John
>
>
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