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Re: [ontolog-forum] The "qua-entities" paradigm

To: Rich Cooper <metasemantics@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: "[ontolog-forum]" <ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
From: Pat Hayes <phayes@xxxxxxx>
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 10:35:05 -0700
Message-id: <083E3B16-8A0B-4920-A0D8-B76C42495F58@xxxxxxx>
(I had vowed not to get involved in this, but...)     (01)

NO, Rich, that is EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of what Matthew said. Did you actually 
read his words? He said that the identity of each grain of sand is IN THE REAL 
WORLD, WHETHER OR NOT YOU ARE INTERESTED IN IT. He did not say that it depends 
upon your perspective. You and your perspective could cease to exist, and the 
grains of sand would still be real, in the real world, with their identities 
intact. The identities of things in the real world do not depend upon your or 
anyone else's perspectives upon them. They are, you see, REAL.     (02)

Pat Hayes    (03)

On Jun 17, 2015, at 7:38 AM, Rich Cooper <metasemantics@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
wrote:    (04)

> Dear Matthew,
>  
> So you are saying that the identity of sand depends on your perspective, on 
>the problem you are solving, or on the goals you set.  One grain of sand 
>*could* have its own identity, but only if you are interested in tracking all 
>the grains of sand in your context. 
>  
> Yet I can identify sand in 20 pound bags with one identifier - the one on the 
>sand bag. 
>  
> Did I get your meaning right, Matthew, i.e., it all depends on your own 
>personal perspective, which states how you view the sand. 
>  
> Thanks!
>  
> Sincerely,
> Rich Cooper,
> Rich Cooper,
>  
> Chief Technology Officer,
> MetaSemantics Corporation
> MetaSemantics AT EnglishLogicKernel DOT com
> ( 9 4 9 ) 5 2 5-5 7 1 2
> http://www.EnglishLogicKernel.com
>  
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
>[mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Matthew West
> Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 2:26 AM
> To: '[ontolog-forum] '
> Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] The "qua-entities" paradigm
>  
> Dear Rich,
> Each grain of sand exists in the real world and has identity, whether or not 
>you are interested in them. That is something entirely different. A handful of 
>sand is also something that exists in the real world (the aggregate of the 
>grains of sand whilst they are in your hand) and whether you care about that 
>is also a different question.
>  
> Regards
>  
> Matthew West                           
> Information  Junction
> Mobile: +44 750 3385279
> Skype: dr.matthew.west
> matthew.west@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> http://www.informationjunction.co.uk/
> https://www.matthew-west.org.uk/
> This email originates from Information Junction Ltd. Registered in England 
>and Wales No. 6632177.
> Registered office: 8 Ennismore Close, Letchworth Garden City, Hertfordshire,
> SG6 2SU.
>  
>  
>  
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Rich Cooper
> Sent: 17 June 2015 06:49
> To: '[ontolog-forum] '
> Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] The "qua-entities" paradigm
>  
> Are you saying that identity must *always* be *unique*?  I can identify a 
>handful of sand at the beach without assigning an identity to each grain.
> All grains look the same to me, therefore all sand has the same identity, so 
>I treat it as a unitless object, and the best I can do to subdivide it is to 
>organize it into specific volumes, weights and prices.
>  
> Sincerely,
> Rich Cooper,
>  
> Chief Technology Officer,
> MetaSemantics Corporation
> MetaSemantics AT EnglishLogicKernel DOT com ( 9 4 9 ) 5 2 5-5 7 1 2 
>http://www.EnglishLogicKernel.com
>  
>  
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John F Sowa
> Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2015 10:30 PM
> To: ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] The "qua-entities" paradigm
>  
> On 6/17/2015 1:12 AM, Rich Cooper wrote:
> > you could say that the ID is the concatenated value of all
> properties
>  
> I was trying to explain that similarity is observable, but identity is always 
>an inference.
>  
> It's irrelevant how you represent the properties or what conventions you 
>adopt for storing information about them.
>  
> You still have to observe the patterns before you can *infer* whether or not 
>they determine a unique item.
>  
> John
>  
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