Hi Leo, (01)
This is strange. For some time now, emails on the Summit list
have been popping up on my EDM Council account but I didn't
investigate how. I normally use this Hypercube account for
Ontolog-related matters, for continuity. (02)
I replied on the EDM Council account and I also can't see that
reply here. Even though I do see my subsequent reply to Steve
from the same account. (03)
Anyway, what I said is replicated below under Steve's response.
The threading is all over the place no matter what mail client
you use, I think. (04)
I'll stick to using this account on these threads from here on. (05)
Mike (06)
On 01/05/2012 23:13, Obrst, Leo J. wrote:
> I'm losing track of the thread here, since I've not yet received Mike's
>message. It looks like we have 3 lists going, so perhaps I am not on the
>simf-rfp, simfteam lists? Or else stuff went to junk. I'll check.
>
> No, just checked: not in junk. Maybe it will show up eventually.
>
> Thanks,
> Leo
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>[mailto:ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Steve Ray
> Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 3:24 PM
> To: 'Mike Bennett'; 'Ontology Summit 2012 discussion'; 'Cory Casanave'
> Cc: simf-rfp@xxxxxxx; simfteam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [ontology-summit] First Model Bench Challenge
>
> Mike, I agree. Those are the concepts I intended, I just used the wrong
> words (!)
>
> I was thinking we could label the concepts, such as marriage-e for the event
> and marriage-s for the state.
>
> Steven R. Ray, Ph.D.
> Distinguished Research Fellow
> Carnegie Mellon University
> NASA Research Park
> Building 23 (MS 23-11)
> P.O. Box 1
> Moffett Field, CA 94305-0001
> Email: steve.ray@xxxxxxxxxx
> Phone: (650) 587-3780
> Cell: (202) 316-6481
> Skype: steverayconsulting
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Bennett [mailto:mbennett@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 12:11 PM
> To: steve.ray@xxxxxxxxxx; Ontology Summit 2012 discussion; 'Cory Casanave'
> Cc: simf-rfp@xxxxxxx; simfteam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: [ontology-summit] First Model Bench Challenge
>
> I would tend to frame that in a slightly different way. We are talking about
> words and meanings, and it's clear from this example (and from some that we
> have been working on) that once you consider modeling meaningful concepts,
> there are not enough words to go around - natural language speakers use a
> lot of contextual stuff to disambiguate.
>
> So there are more concepts than words. Marriage as a transition and as a
> state is (as has been noted) a not untypical example. Commitments and
> obligations in transactions are another example we are grappling with right
> now (the commitment when the deal is struck and the
> commitment/obligation/whatever that persists until the deal is settled).
>
> To me it therefore makes more sense to speak not in terms of wanting to
> "model every interpretation of a concept" but rather "model every concept
> that a word may be used to represent" or "model every meaning of a word" or
> simply "model every concept" ... and then map these to the words.
>
> That is to say, I think it is misleading to refer to words as though they
> are concepts. They are not. They are symbols.
>
> And before anyone else says it, SBVR has a good formal treatment of the
> relationships between words and meanings, i.e. vocabulary / lexicon versus
> meaningful concepts.
>
> For those who speak more than one language, the concept (the meaning) is
> what you hold in your mind while seeking for the word in the language you
> are interpreting into. For those who don't, the nearest thing I can think of
> is that "it's on the tip of my tongue" moment when you know what you want to
> say but not the words in which to say it. I don't know if that helps.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mike
>
> --
> Mike Bennett
> Head of Semantics and Standards
> EDM Council
> Tel: +44 20 7917 9522
> Cell: +44 7721 420 730
> www.edmcouncil.org
> Semantics Repository: www.hypercube.co.uk/edmcouncil
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Steve Ray
> Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 1:47 PM
> To: 'Ontology Summit 2012 discussion'; 'Cory Casanave'
> Cc: simf-rfp@xxxxxxx; simfteam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [ontology-summit] First Model Bench Challenge
>
> I agree that the real value of this exercise is for us to dig as deep as we
> possibly can to model every conceivable interpretation of the concepts. This
> will give us a fantastic artifact for intercomparisons& round-robin
> exercises, as well as a great way to examine the different languages.
>
>
> Steven R. Ray, Ph.D.
> Distinguished Research Fellow
> Carnegie Mellon University
> NASA Research Park
> Building 23 (MS 23-11)
> P.O. Box 1
> Moffett Field, CA 94305-0001
> Email: steve.ray@xxxxxxxxxx
> Phone: (650) 587-3780
> Cell: (202) 316-6481
> Skype: steverayconsulting
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Paul Brown
> Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 6:58 AM
> To: Cory Casanave; Ontology Summit 2012 discussion
> Cc: simf-rfp@xxxxxxx; simfteam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [ontology-summit] First Model Bench Challenge
>
> A likely scenario drawn from this discussion is one in which one party views
> the marriage as the event while another party views the marriage as the
> state. They are never going to agree on a common definition, because each
> has its own concept. Yet these two concepts are definitely related: One
> marks the point of state transition that is part of the other's model.
>
> I think this is illustrative of situations (pardon the double entendre) we
> are going to encounter in the real world!
>
> -- PCB
>
> ****************************************************************************
> **************
> Paul C. Brown
> Principal Software Architect
> TIBCO Software Inc.
> Email: pbrown@xxxxxxxxx Mobile: 518-424-5360
>
> "Total architecture is not a choice - it is a concession to reality."
> Visit www.total-architecture.com
> Architecture Books:
> -- Succeeding With SOA: Realizing Business Value Through Total Architecture
> -- Implementing SOA: Total Architecture In Practice
> -- TIBCO Architecture Fundamentals
>
> The SOA Manifesto: soa-manifesto.org
>
> Read the TIBCO blog: www.thetibcoblog.com
> ****************************************************************************
> **************
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cory Casanave [mailto:cory-c@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 12:17 AM
> To: Ontology Summit 2012 discussion
> Cc: simfteam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; simf-rfp@xxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: [ontology-summit] First Model Bench Challenge
>
> I would agree - there are 2 concepts under the label "Marriage", a situation
> and an event. The intent of the example in the web page is the situation but
> you may well also represent the event for extra credit!
> -Cory
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:ontology-summit- bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Hans
>> Polzer
>> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 9:55 PM
>> To: 'Ontology Summit 2012 discussion'
>> Subject: Re: [ontology-summit] First Model Bench Challenge
>>
>> Isn't it both? Marriage is both a state transition (the rite that
>> signals the transition to a married state from an unmarried state),
>> and a steady state condition after the state transition occurs (as in
>> "their marriage has lasted for
>> 50 years"). The word "wedding" is often used to distinguish between
>> the state transition and the steady state condition, denoting the
>> former but not the latter (although common usage isn't always precise
>> on this point, as in "wedded bliss").
>>
>> Hans
>>
>> Hans
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jack
>> Ring
>> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 8:44 PM
>> To: doug@xxxxxxxxxx; Ontology Summit 2012 discussion
>> Subject: Re: [ontology-summit] First Model Bench Challenge
>>
>> ??
>> Marriage is a situation in which a couple BECOMES married.") On Apr
>> 30, 2012, at 1:39 PM, doug foxvog wrote:
>>
>>> Marriage is a situation in which a couple is married.")
>>
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> (07)
--
Mike Bennett
Director
Hypercube Ltd.
89 Worship Street
London EC2A 2BF
Tel: +44 (0) 20 7917 9522
Mob: +44 (0) 7721 420 730
www.hypercube.co.uk
Registered in England and Wales No. 2461068 (08)
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