On Tue, May 1, 2012 18:59, Jack Ring wrote:
> Now we are getting in deeper. RE: "trying to identify concepts and the
> relationships between them" is
> a relationship between two concepts also a concept? (01)
Strangely, the word "concept" is used as jargon in some branches of
computer ontology to mean "type of thing" or "class of thing". So the
relationship between two classes is not itself a class. (02)
On the other hand, if you treat "concept" to mean "idea" or "mental
construct", then a relationship between two mental constructs is
also a mental construct. (03)
So often we talk past each other and think that we disagree when
we are merely misinterpreting what the other person is trying to
convey. That is to be expected in a forum like this, in which people
come from different disciplines and often use jargon from their
discipline which other people mis-understand as having a meaning
from plain vanilla English. (04)
-- doug f (05)
> On May 1, 2012, at 12:19 PM, Paul Brown wrote:
>
>> I agree with Mike. At the end of the day we are trying to identify
>> concepts and the relationships between them. Each of these nuances is a
>> distinct concept, though each is often closely related to other
>> concepts. In any given context (which is itself a concept - and Cory is
>> right to harp on this) the goal is to understand which concepts and
>> relationships are relevant and then ensure that in the conversations
>> that occur within (or are related to) that context the vocabulary
>> clearly and unambiguously identifies those concepts and relationships.
>>
>> -- PCB
>>
>>
>******************************************************************************************
>> Paul C. Brown
>> Principal Software Architect
>> TIBCO Software Inc.
>> Email: pbrown@xxxxxxxxx Mobile: 518-424-5360
>>
>> "Total architecture is not a choice - it is a concession to reality."
>> Visit www.total-architecture.com
>> Architecture Books:
>> -- Succeeding With SOA: Realizing Business Value Through Total
>> Architecture
>> -- Implementing SOA: Total Architecture In Practice
>> -- TIBCO Architecture Fundamentals
>>
>> The SOA Manifesto: soa-manifesto.org
>>
>> Read the TIBCO blog: www.thetibcoblog.com
>>
>******************************************************************************************
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Mike Bennett [mailto:mbennett@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 3:11 PM
>> To: steve.ray@xxxxxxxxxx; Ontology Summit 2012 discussion; 'Cory
>> Casanave'
>> Cc: simf-rfp@xxxxxxx; simfteam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: RE: [ontology-summit] First Model Bench Challenge
>>
>> I would tend to frame that in a slightly different way. We are talking
>> about words and meanings, and it's clear from this example (and from
>> some that we have been working on) that once you consider modeling
>> meaningful concepts, there are not enough words to go around - natural
>> language speakers use a lot of contextual stuff to disambiguate.
>>
>> So there are more concepts than words. Marriage as a transition and as a
>> state is (as has been noted) a not untypical example. Commitments and
>> obligations in transactions are another example we are grappling with
>> right now (the commitment when the deal is struck and the
>> commitment/obligation/whatever that persists until the deal is settled).
>>
>> To me it therefore makes more sense to speak not in terms of wanting to
>> "model every interpretation of a concept" but rather "model every
>> concept that a word may be used to represent" or "model every meaning of
>> a word" or simply "model every concept" ... and then map these to the
>> words.
>>
>> That is to say, I think it is misleading to refer to words as though
>> they are concepts. They are not. They are symbols.
>>
>> And before anyone else says it, SBVR has a good formal treatment of the
>> relationships between words and meanings, i.e. vocabulary / lexicon
>> versus meaningful concepts.
>>
>> For those who speak more than one language, the concept (the meaning) is
>> what you hold in your mind while seeking for the word in the language
>> you are interpreting into. For those who don't, the nearest thing I can
>> think of is that "it's on the tip of my tongue" moment when you know
>> what you want to say but not the words in which to say it. I don't know
>> if that helps.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> --
>> Mike Bennett
>> Head of Semantics and Standards
>> EDM Council
>> Tel: +44 20 7917 9522
>> Cell: +44 7721 420 730
>> www.edmcouncil.org
>> Semantics Repository: www.hypercube.co.uk/edmcouncil
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Steve Ray
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 1:47 PM
>> To: 'Ontology Summit 2012 discussion'; 'Cory Casanave'
>> Cc: simf-rfp@xxxxxxx; simfteam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: [ontology-summit] First Model Bench Challenge
>>
>> I agree that the real value of this exercise is for us to dig as deep as
>> we
>> possibly can to model every conceivable interpretation of the concepts.
>> This
>> will give us a fantastic artifact for intercomparisons & round-robin
>> exercises, as well as a great way to examine the different languages.
>>
>>
>> Steven R. Ray, Ph.D.
>> Distinguished Research Fellow
>> Carnegie Mellon University
>> NASA Research Park
>> Building 23 (MS 23-11)
>> P.O. Box 1
>> Moffett Field, CA 94305-0001
>> Email: steve.ray@xxxxxxxxxx
>> Phone: (650) 587-3780
>> Cell: (202) 316-6481
>> Skype: steverayconsulting
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Paul
>> Brown
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 6:58 AM
>> To: Cory Casanave; Ontology Summit 2012 discussion
>> Cc: simf-rfp@xxxxxxx; simfteam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: [ontology-summit] First Model Bench Challenge
>>
>> A likely scenario drawn from this discussion is one in which one party
>> views
>> the marriage as the event while another party views the marriage as the
>> state. They are never going to agree on a common definition, because
>> each
>> has its own concept. Yet these two concepts are definitely related: One
>> marks the point of state transition that is part of the other's model.
>>
>> I think this is illustrative of situations (pardon the double entendre)
>> we
>> are going to encounter in the real world!
>>
>> -- PCB
>>
>> ****************************************************************************
>> **************
>> Paul C. Brown
>> Principal Software Architect
>> TIBCO Software Inc.
>> Email: pbrown@xxxxxxxxx Mobile: 518-424-5360
>>
>> "Total architecture is not a choice - it is a concession to reality."
>> Visit www.total-architecture.com
>> Architecture Books:
>> -- Succeeding With SOA: Realizing Business Value Through Total
>> Architecture
>> -- Implementing SOA: Total Architecture In Practice
>> -- TIBCO Architecture Fundamentals
>>
>> The SOA Manifesto: soa-manifesto.org
>>
>> Read the TIBCO blog: www.thetibcoblog.com
>> ****************************************************************************
>> **************
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Cory Casanave [mailto:cory-c@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 12:17 AM
>> To: Ontology Summit 2012 discussion
>> Cc: simfteam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; simf-rfp@xxxxxxx
>> Subject: RE: [ontology-summit] First Model Bench Challenge
>>
>> I would agree - there are 2 concepts under the label "Marriage", a
>> situation
>> and an event. The intent of the example in the web page is the situation
>> but
>> you may well also represent the event for extra credit!
>> -Cory
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:ontology-summit- bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Hans
>>> Polzer
>>> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 9:55 PM
>>> To: 'Ontology Summit 2012 discussion'
>>> Subject: Re: [ontology-summit] First Model Bench Challenge
>>>
>>> Isn't it both? Marriage is both a state transition (the rite that
>>> signals the transition to a married state from an unmarried state),
>>> and a steady state condition after the state transition occurs (as in
>>> "their marriage has lasted for
>>> 50 years"). The word "wedding" is often used to distinguish between
>>> the state transition and the steady state condition, denoting the
>>> former but not the latter (although common usage isn't always precise
>>> on this point, as in "wedded bliss").
>>>
>>> Hans
>>>
>>> Hans
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jack
>>> Ring
>>> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 8:44 PM
>>> To: doug@xxxxxxxxxx; Ontology Summit 2012 discussion
>>> Subject: Re: [ontology-summit] First Model Bench Challenge
>>>
>>> ??
>>> Marriage is a situation in which a couple BECOMES married.") On Apr
>>> 30, 2012, at 1:39 PM, doug foxvog wrote:
>>>
>>>> Marriage is a situation in which a couple is married.")
>>>
>>>
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