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Re: [ontology-summit] First Model Bench Challenge

To: Ontology Summit 2012 discussion <ontology-summit@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "steve.ray@xxxxxxxxxx" <steve.ray@xxxxxxxxxx>, 'Cory Casanave' <cory-c@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: "simf-rfp@xxxxxxx" <simf-rfp@xxxxxxx>, "simfteam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx" <simfteam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
From: "Obrst, Leo J." <lobrst@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 20:54:44 +0000
Message-id: <FDFBC56B2482EE48850DB651ADF7FEB01838F301@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sure, Chris, but I wanted to avoid going down that rabbit hole! When I read the 
cognitive science areas, I find that they largely duplicate both the semantics 
and ontology areas, but with their own slightly different notions.    (01)

E.g., I'm thinking of (besides the philosophy of mind and philosophy of AI 
stuff):    (02)

Margolis, Eric; Stephen Laurence. 1999. Concepts: Core Readings. Cambridge, MA; 
London, England: The MIT Press.    (03)

Aside: we have used notions like "prototypes" and "exemplars" in our ontology 
work, but things get complicated.    (04)

Thanks,
Leo    (05)

-----Original Message-----
From: ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Chris Partridge
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 3:59 PM
To: 'Ontology Summit 2012 discussion'; steve.ray@xxxxxxxxxx; 'Cory Casanave'
Cc: simf-rfp@xxxxxxx; simfteam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ontology-summit] First Model Bench Challenge    (06)

Hi Leo,    (07)

LO> where often "sense" is replaced by "concept". "
And this is just one of three senses for concept in philosophy of mind - see
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/concepts/
The sense of concept as mental representations is more common in folk
psychology.    (08)

Regards,
Chris Partridge
Chief Ontologist    (09)

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> -----Original Message-----
> From: ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontology-summit-
> bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Obrst, Leo J.
> Sent: 02 May 2012 19:32
> To: Ontology Summit 2012 discussion; steve.ray@xxxxxxxxxx; 'Cory Casanave'
> Cc: simf-rfp@xxxxxxx; simfteam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [ontology-summit] First Model Bench Challenge
> 
> Mike,
> 
> I agree with your response. However, it should be noted  that  there are 2
> major views of the relation between a word and the thing in the world,
one of
> which that goes back at least to Frege and Peirce in natural language
semantics
> (the 3 "object" position):
> 
> 1) There are 3 "objects" (I use it loosely, roughly identified 3 points):
word -
> sense - reference, where often "sense" is replaced by "concept".
"Reference" is
> the thing/kind in the world that the word refers to/"denotes". This 3-ness
> closely aligns with the triangle of signification, Peirce's
characterization, etc.
> 2) There are 2 "objects": word - reference. I.e.,  the word/phrases
directly
> denote the things of the  world. Some philosophical realists take this
position.
> 
> Thanks,
> Leo
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontology-summit-
> bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Mike Bennett
> Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 3:11 PM
> To: steve.ray@xxxxxxxxxx; Ontology Summit 2012 discussion; 'Cory Casanave'
> Cc: simf-rfp@xxxxxxx; simfteam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [ontology-summit] First Model Bench Challenge
> 
> I would tend to frame that in a slightly different way. We are talking
about
> words and meanings, and it's clear from this example (and from some that
we
> have been working on) that once you consider modeling meaningful concepts,
> there are not enough words to go around - natural language speakers use a
lot
> of contextual stuff to disambiguate.
> 
> So there are more concepts than words. Marriage as a transition and as a
state
> is (as has been noted) a not untypical example. Commitments and
obligations
> in transactions are another example we are grappling with right now (the
> commitment when the deal is struck and the
> commitment/obligation/whatever that persists until the deal is settled).
> 
> To me it therefore makes more sense to speak not in terms of wanting to
> "model every interpretation of a concept" but rather "model every concept
> that a word may be used to represent" or "model every meaning of a word"
or
> simply "model every concept" ... and then map these to the words.
> 
> That is to say, I think it is misleading to refer to words as though they
are
> concepts. They are not. They are symbols.
> 
> And before anyone else says it, SBVR has a good formal treatment of the
> relationships between words and meanings, i.e. vocabulary / lexicon versus
> meaningful concepts.
> 
> For those who speak more than one language, the concept (the meaning) is
> what you hold in your mind while seeking for the word in the language you
are
> interpreting into. For those who don't, the nearest thing I can think of
is that
> "it's on the tip of my tongue" moment when you know what you want to say
> but not the words in which to say it. I don't know if that helps.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Mike
> 
> --
> Mike Bennett
> Head of Semantics and Standards
> EDM Council
> Tel: +44 20 7917 9522
> Cell: +44 7721 420 730
> www.edmcouncil.org
> Semantics Repository: www.hypercube.co.uk/edmcouncil
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontology-summit-
> bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Steve Ray
> Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 1:47 PM
> To: 'Ontology Summit 2012 discussion'; 'Cory Casanave'
> Cc: simf-rfp@xxxxxxx; simfteam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [ontology-summit] First Model Bench Challenge
> 
> I agree that the real value of this exercise is for us to dig as deep as
we possibly
> can to model every conceivable interpretation of the concepts. This will
give us
> a fantastic artifact for intercomparisons & round-robin exercises, as well
as a
> great way to examine the different languages.
> 
> 
> Steven R. Ray, Ph.D.
> Distinguished Research Fellow
> Carnegie Mellon University
> NASA Research Park
> Building 23 (MS 23-11)
> P.O. Box 1
> Moffett Field, CA 94305-0001
> Email:    steve.ray@xxxxxxxxxx
> Phone: (650) 587-3780
> Cell:      (202) 316-6481
> Skype: steverayconsulting
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Paul
> Brown
> Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 6:58 AM
> To: Cory Casanave; Ontology Summit 2012 discussion
> Cc: simf-rfp@xxxxxxx; simfteam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [ontology-summit] First Model Bench Challenge
> 
> A likely scenario drawn from this discussion is one in which one party
views the
> marriage as the event while another party views the marriage as the state.
> They are never going to agree on a common definition, because each has its
> own concept. Yet these two concepts are definitely related: One marks the
> point of state transition that is part of the other's model.
> 
> I think this is illustrative of situations (pardon the double entendre) we
are
> going to encounter in the real world!
> 
>                               -- PCB
> 
> *****************************************************************
> ***********
> **************
> Paul C. Brown
> Principal Software Architect
> TIBCO Software Inc.
> Email: pbrown@xxxxxxxxx               Mobile: 518-424-5360
> 
> "Total architecture is not a choice - it is a concession to reality."
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> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cory Casanave [mailto:cory-c@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 12:17 AM
> To: Ontology Summit 2012 discussion
> Cc: simfteam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; simf-rfp@xxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: [ontology-summit] First Model Bench Challenge
> 
> I would agree - there are 2 concepts under the label "Marriage", a
situation
> and an event. The intent of the example in the web page is the situation
but
> you may well also represent the event for extra credit!
> -Cory
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:ontology-summit- bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Hans
> > Polzer
> > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 9:55 PM
> > To: 'Ontology Summit 2012 discussion'
> > Subject: Re: [ontology-summit] First Model Bench Challenge
> >
> > Isn't it both? Marriage is both a state transition (the rite that
> > signals the transition to a married state from an unmarried state),
> > and a steady state condition after the state transition occurs (as in
> > "their marriage has lasted for
> > 50 years"). The word "wedding" is often used to distinguish between
> > the state transition and the steady state condition, denoting the
> > former but not the latter (although common usage isn't always precise
> > on this point, as  in "wedded bliss").
> >
> > Hans
> >
> > Hans
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jack
> > Ring
> > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 8:44 PM
> > To: doug@xxxxxxxxxx; Ontology Summit 2012 discussion
> > Subject: Re: [ontology-summit] First Model Bench Challenge
> >
> > ??
> > Marriage is a situation in which a couple BECOMES married.") On Apr
> > 30, 2012, at 1:39 PM, doug foxvog wrote:
> >
> > > Marriage is a situation in which a couple is married.")
> >
> >
> >
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