Mike, (01)
I agree with your response. However, it should be noted that there are 2
major views of the relation between a word and the thing in the world, one of
which that goes back at least to Frege and Peirce in natural language semantics
(the 3 "object" position): (02)
1) There are 3 "objects" (I use it loosely, roughly identified 3 points): word
- sense - reference, where often "sense" is replaced by "concept". "Reference"
is the thing/kind in the world that the word refers to/"denotes". This 3-ness
closely aligns with the triangle of signification, Peirce's characterization,
etc.
2) There are 2 "objects": word - reference. I.e., the word/phrases directly
denote the things of the world. Some philosophical realists take this position. (03)
Thanks,
Leo (04)
-----Original Message-----
From: ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Mike Bennett
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 3:11 PM
To: steve.ray@xxxxxxxxxx; Ontology Summit 2012 discussion; 'Cory Casanave'
Cc: simf-rfp@xxxxxxx; simfteam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ontology-summit] First Model Bench Challenge (05)
I would tend to frame that in a slightly different way. We are talking about
words and meanings, and it's clear from this example (and from some that we
have been working on) that once you consider modeling meaningful concepts,
there are not enough words to go around - natural language speakers use a lot
of contextual stuff to disambiguate. (06)
So there are more concepts than words. Marriage as a transition and as a state
is (as has been noted) a not untypical example. Commitments and obligations in
transactions are another example we are grappling with right now (the
commitment when the deal is struck and the commitment/obligation/whatever that
persists until the deal is settled). (07)
To me it therefore makes more sense to speak not in terms of wanting to "model
every interpretation of a concept" but rather "model every concept that a word
may be used to represent" or "model every meaning of a word" or simply "model
every concept" ... and then map these to the words. (08)
That is to say, I think it is misleading to refer to words as though they are
concepts. They are not. They are symbols. (09)
And before anyone else says it, SBVR has a good formal treatment of the
relationships between words and meanings, i.e. vocabulary / lexicon versus
meaningful concepts. (010)
For those who speak more than one language, the concept (the meaning) is what
you hold in your mind while seeking for the word in the language you are
interpreting into. For those who don't, the nearest thing I can think of is
that "it's on the tip of my tongue" moment when you know what you want to say
but not the words in which to say it. I don't know if that helps. (011)
Best regards, (012)
Mike (013)
--
Mike Bennett
Head of Semantics and Standards
EDM Council
Tel: +44 20 7917 9522
Cell: +44 7721 420 730
www.edmcouncil.org
Semantics Repository: www.hypercube.co.uk/edmcouncil (014)
-----Original Message-----
From: ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Steve Ray
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 1:47 PM
To: 'Ontology Summit 2012 discussion'; 'Cory Casanave'
Cc: simf-rfp@xxxxxxx; simfteam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ontology-summit] First Model Bench Challenge (015)
I agree that the real value of this exercise is for us to dig as deep as we
possibly can to model every conceivable interpretation of the concepts. This
will give us a fantastic artifact for intercomparisons & round-robin
exercises, as well as a great way to examine the different languages. (016)
Steven R. Ray, Ph.D.
Distinguished Research Fellow
Carnegie Mellon University
NASA Research Park
Building 23 (MS 23-11)
P.O. Box 1
Moffett Field, CA 94305-0001
Email: steve.ray@xxxxxxxxxx
Phone: (650) 587-3780
Cell: (202) 316-6481
Skype: steverayconsulting (017)
-----Original Message-----
From: ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Paul Brown
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 6:58 AM
To: Cory Casanave; Ontology Summit 2012 discussion
Cc: simf-rfp@xxxxxxx; simfteam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ontology-summit] First Model Bench Challenge (018)
A likely scenario drawn from this discussion is one in which one party views
the marriage as the event while another party views the marriage as the
state. They are never going to agree on a common definition, because each
has its own concept. Yet these two concepts are definitely related: One
marks the point of state transition that is part of the other's model. (019)
I think this is illustrative of situations (pardon the double entendre) we
are going to encounter in the real world! (020)
-- PCB (021)
****************************************************************************
**************
Paul C. Brown
Principal Software Architect
TIBCO Software Inc.
Email: pbrown@xxxxxxxxx Mobile: 518-424-5360 (022)
"Total architecture is not a choice - it is a concession to reality."
Visit www.total-architecture.com
Architecture Books:
-- Succeeding With SOA: Realizing Business Value Through Total Architecture
-- Implementing SOA: Total Architecture In Practice
-- TIBCO Architecture Fundamentals (023)
The SOA Manifesto: soa-manifesto.org (024)
Read the TIBCO blog: www.thetibcoblog.com
****************************************************************************
************** (025)
-----Original Message-----
From: Cory Casanave [mailto:cory-c@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 12:17 AM
To: Ontology Summit 2012 discussion
Cc: simfteam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; simf-rfp@xxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [ontology-summit] First Model Bench Challenge (026)
I would agree - there are 2 concepts under the label "Marriage", a situation
and an event. The intent of the example in the web page is the situation but
you may well also represent the event for extra credit!
-Cory (027)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:ontology-summit- bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Hans
> Polzer
> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 9:55 PM
> To: 'Ontology Summit 2012 discussion'
> Subject: Re: [ontology-summit] First Model Bench Challenge
>
> Isn't it both? Marriage is both a state transition (the rite that
> signals the transition to a married state from an unmarried state),
> and a steady state condition after the state transition occurs (as in
> "their marriage has lasted for
> 50 years"). The word "wedding" is often used to distinguish between
> the state transition and the steady state condition, denoting the
> former but not the latter (although common usage isn't always precise
> on this point, as in "wedded bliss").
>
> Hans
>
> Hans
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jack
> Ring
> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 8:44 PM
> To: doug@xxxxxxxxxx; Ontology Summit 2012 discussion
> Subject: Re: [ontology-summit] First Model Bench Challenge
>
> ??
> Marriage is a situation in which a couple BECOMES married.") On Apr
> 30, 2012, at 1:39 PM, doug foxvog wrote:
>
> > Marriage is a situation in which a couple is married.")
>
>
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