On Wed, May 2, 2012 13:38, Jack Ring wrote:
> Doug,
> So much for 'some branches of computer ontology' but what
>about the other 95% of humans? (01)
They are not involved in technical discussions on the methods of
creation of ontologies. (02)
> Also, does your ["type of thing" or "class of thing"] indicate that you
> see these terms as semantically equivalent? (03)
I recognize that the terms have multiple meanings so put in two to
help people understand what i'm referring to. (04)
-- doug (05)
> On May 2, 2012, at 10:21 AM, doug foxvog wrote:
>
>> On Tue, May 1, 2012 18:59, Jack Ring wrote:
>>> Now we are getting in deeper. RE: "trying to identify concepts and the
>>> relationships between them" is
>>> a relationship between two concepts also a concept?
>>
>> Strangely, the word "concept" is used as jargon in some branches of
>> computer ontology to mean "type of thing" or "class of thing". So the
>> relationship between two classes is not itself a class.
>>
>> On the other hand, if you treat "concept" to mean "idea" or "mental
>> construct", then a relationship between two mental constructs is
>> also a mental construct.
>>
>> So often we talk past each other and think that we disagree when
>> we are merely misinterpreting what the other person is trying to
>> convey. That is to be expected in a forum like this, in which people
>> come from different disciplines and often use jargon from their
>> discipline which other people mis-understand as having a meaning
>> from plain vanilla English.
>>
>> -- doug f
>>
>>
>>> On May 1, 2012, at 12:19 PM, Paul Brown wrote:
>>>
>>>> I agree with Mike. At the end of the day we are trying to identify
>>>> concepts and the relationships between them. Each of these nuances is
>>>> a
>>>> distinct concept, though each is often closely related to other
>>>> concepts. In any given context (which is itself a concept - and Cory
>>>> is
>>>> right to harp on this) the goal is to understand which concepts and
>>>> relationships are relevant and then ensure that in the conversations
>>>> that occur within (or are related to) that context the vocabulary
>>>> clearly and unambiguously identifies those concepts and relationships.
>>>>
>>>> -- PCB
>>>>
>>>>
>******************************************************************************************
>>>> Paul C. Brown
>>>> Principal Software Architect
>>>> TIBCO Software Inc.
>>>> Email: pbrown@xxxxxxxxx Mobile: 518-424-5360
>>>>
>>>> "Total architecture is not a choice - it is a concession to reality."
>>>> Visit www.total-architecture.com
>>>> Architecture Books:
>>>> -- Succeeding With SOA: Realizing Business Value Through Total
>>>> Architecture
>>>> -- Implementing SOA: Total Architecture In Practice
>>>> -- TIBCO Architecture Fundamentals
>>>>
>>>> The SOA Manifesto: soa-manifesto.org
>>>>
>>>> Read the TIBCO blog: www.thetibcoblog.com
>>>>
>******************************************************************************************
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Mike Bennett [mailto:mbennett@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 3:11 PM
>>>> To: steve.ray@xxxxxxxxxx; Ontology Summit 2012 discussion; 'Cory
>>>> Casanave'
>>>> Cc: simf-rfp@xxxxxxx; simfteam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: RE: [ontology-summit] First Model Bench Challenge
>>>>
>>>> I would tend to frame that in a slightly different way. We are talking
>>>> about words and meanings, and it's clear from this example (and from
>>>> some that we have been working on) that once you consider modeling
>>>> meaningful concepts, there are not enough words to go around - natural
>>>> language speakers use a lot of contextual stuff to disambiguate.
>>>>
>>>> So there are more concepts than words. Marriage as a transition and as
>>>> a
>>>> state is (as has been noted) a not untypical example. Commitments and
>>>> obligations in transactions are another example we are grappling with
>>>> right now (the commitment when the deal is struck and the
>>>> commitment/obligation/whatever that persists until the deal is
>>>> settled).
>>>>
>>>> To me it therefore makes more sense to speak not in terms of wanting
>>>> to
>>>> "model every interpretation of a concept" but rather "model every
>>>> concept that a word may be used to represent" or "model every meaning
>>>> of
>>>> a word" or simply "model every concept" ... and then map these to the
>>>> words.
>>>>
>>>> That is to say, I think it is misleading to refer to words as though
>>>> they are concepts. They are not. They are symbols.
>>>>
>>>> And before anyone else says it, SBVR has a good formal treatment of
>>>> the
>>>> relationships between words and meanings, i.e. vocabulary / lexicon
>>>> versus meaningful concepts.
>>>>
>>>> For those who speak more than one language, the concept (the meaning)
>>>> is
>>>> what you hold in your mind while seeking for the word in the language
>>>> you are interpreting into. For those who don't, the nearest thing I
>>>> can
>>>> think of is that "it's on the tip of my tongue" moment when you know
>>>> what you want to say but not the words in which to say it. I don't
>>>> know
>>>> if that helps.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Mike Bennett
>>>> Head of Semantics and Standards
>>>> EDM Council
>>>> Tel: +44 20 7917 9522
>>>> Cell: +44 7721 420 730
>>>> www.edmcouncil.org
>>>> Semantics Repository: www.hypercube.co.uk/edmcouncil
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Steve
>>>> Ray
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 1:47 PM
>>>> To: 'Ontology Summit 2012 discussion'; 'Cory Casanave'
>>>> Cc: simf-rfp@xxxxxxx; simfteam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: Re: [ontology-summit] First Model Bench Challenge
>>>>
>>>> I agree that the real value of this exercise is for us to dig as deep
>>>> as
>>>> we
>>>> possibly can to model every conceivable interpretation of the
>>>> concepts.
>>>> This
>>>> will give us a fantastic artifact for intercomparisons & round-robin
>>>> exercises, as well as a great way to examine the different languages.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Steven R. Ray, Ph.D.
>>>> Distinguished Research Fellow
>>>> Carnegie Mellon University
>>>> NASA Research Park
>>>> Building 23 (MS 23-11)
>>>> P.O. Box 1
>>>> Moffett Field, CA 94305-0001
>>>> Email: steve.ray@xxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Phone: (650) 587-3780
>>>> Cell: (202) 316-6481
>>>> Skype: steverayconsulting
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Paul
>>>> Brown
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 6:58 AM
>>>> To: Cory Casanave; Ontology Summit 2012 discussion
>>>> Cc: simf-rfp@xxxxxxx; simfteam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: Re: [ontology-summit] First Model Bench Challenge
>>>>
>>>> A likely scenario drawn from this discussion is one in which one party
>>>> views
>>>> the marriage as the event while another party views the marriage as
>>>> the
>>>> state. They are never going to agree on a common definition, because
>>>> each
>>>> has its own concept. Yet these two concepts are definitely related:
>>>> One
>>>> marks the point of state transition that is part of the other's model.
>>>>
>>>> I think this is illustrative of situations (pardon the double
>>>> entendre)
>>>> we
>>>> are going to encounter in the real world!
>>>>
>>>> -- PCB
>>>>
>>>>
>****************************************************************************
>>>> **************
>>>> Paul C. Brown
>>>> Principal Software Architect
>>>> TIBCO Software Inc.
>>>> Email: pbrown@xxxxxxxxx Mobile: 518-424-5360
>>>>
>>>> "Total architecture is not a choice - it is a concession to reality."
>>>> Visit www.total-architecture.com
>>>> Architecture Books:
>>>> -- Succeeding With SOA: Realizing Business Value Through Total
>>>> Architecture
>>>> -- Implementing SOA: Total Architecture In Practice
>>>> -- TIBCO Architecture Fundamentals
>>>>
>>>> The SOA Manifesto: soa-manifesto.org
>>>>
>>>> Read the TIBCO blog: www.thetibcoblog.com
>>>>
>****************************************************************************
>>>> **************
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Cory Casanave [mailto:cory-c@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 12:17 AM
>>>> To: Ontology Summit 2012 discussion
>>>> Cc: simfteam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; simf-rfp@xxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: RE: [ontology-summit] First Model Bench Challenge
>>>>
>>>> I would agree - there are 2 concepts under the label "Marriage", a
>>>> situation
>>>> and an event. The intent of the example in the web page is the
>>>> situation
>>>> but
>>>> you may well also represent the event for extra credit!
>>>> -Cory
>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> [mailto:ontology-summit- bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Hans
>>>>> Polzer
>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 9:55 PM
>>>>> To: 'Ontology Summit 2012 discussion'
>>>>> Subject: Re: [ontology-summit] First Model Bench Challenge
>>>>>
>>>>> Isn't it both? Marriage is both a state transition (the rite that
>>>>> signals the transition to a married state from an unmarried state),
>>>>> and a steady state condition after the state transition occurs (as in
>>>>> "their marriage has lasted for
>>>>> 50 years"). The word "wedding" is often used to distinguish between
>>>>> the state transition and the steady state condition, denoting the
>>>>> former but not the latter (although common usage isn't always precise
>>>>> on this point, as in "wedded bliss").
>>>>>
>>>>> Hans
>>>>>
>>>>> Hans
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> [mailto:ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jack
>>>>> Ring
>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 8:44 PM
>>>>> To: doug@xxxxxxxxxx; Ontology Summit 2012 discussion
>>>>> Subject: Re: [ontology-summit] First Model Bench Challenge
>>>>>
>>>>> ??
>>>>> Marriage is a situation in which a couple BECOMES married.") On Apr
>>>>> 30, 2012, at 1:39 PM, doug foxvog wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Marriage is a situation in which a couple is married.")
>>>>>
>>>>>
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