Now we are getting in deeper. RE: "trying to identify concepts and the
relationships between them" is
a relationship between two concepts also a concept? (01)
On May 1, 2012, at 12:19 PM, Paul Brown wrote: (02)
> I agree with Mike. At the end of the day we are trying to identify concepts
>and the relationships between them. Each of these nuances is a distinct
>concept, though each is often closely related to other concepts. In any given
>context (which is itself a concept - and Cory is right to harp on this) the
>goal is to understand which concepts and relationships are relevant and then
>ensure that in the conversations that occur within (or are related to) that
>context the vocabulary clearly and unambiguously identifies those concepts and
>relationships.
>
> -- PCB
>
>
>******************************************************************************************
> Paul C. Brown
> Principal Software Architect
> TIBCO Software Inc.
> Email: pbrown@xxxxxxxxx Mobile: 518-424-5360
>
> "Total architecture is not a choice - it is a concession to reality."
> Visit www.total-architecture.com
> Architecture Books:
> -- Succeeding With SOA: Realizing Business Value Through Total Architecture
> -- Implementing SOA: Total Architecture In Practice
> -- TIBCO Architecture Fundamentals
>
> The SOA Manifesto: soa-manifesto.org
>
> Read the TIBCO blog: www.thetibcoblog.com
>
>******************************************************************************************
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Bennett [mailto:mbennett@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 3:11 PM
> To: steve.ray@xxxxxxxxxx; Ontology Summit 2012 discussion; 'Cory Casanave'
> Cc: simf-rfp@xxxxxxx; simfteam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: [ontology-summit] First Model Bench Challenge
>
> I would tend to frame that in a slightly different way. We are talking about
>words and meanings, and it's clear from this example (and from some that we
>have been working on) that once you consider modeling meaningful concepts,
>there are not enough words to go around - natural language speakers use a lot
>of contextual stuff to disambiguate.
>
> So there are more concepts than words. Marriage as a transition and as a
>state is (as has been noted) a not untypical example. Commitments and
>obligations in transactions are another example we are grappling with right
>now (the commitment when the deal is struck and the
>commitment/obligation/whatever that persists until the deal is settled).
>
> To me it therefore makes more sense to speak not in terms of wanting to
>"model every interpretation of a concept" but rather "model every concept that
>a word may be used to represent" or "model every meaning of a word" or simply
>"model every concept" ... and then map these to the words.
>
> That is to say, I think it is misleading to refer to words as though they are
>concepts. They are not. They are symbols.
>
> And before anyone else says it, SBVR has a good formal treatment of the
>relationships between words and meanings, i.e. vocabulary / lexicon versus
>meaningful concepts.
>
> For those who speak more than one language, the concept (the meaning) is what
>you hold in your mind while seeking for the word in the language you are
>interpreting into. For those who don't, the nearest thing I can think of is
>that "it's on the tip of my tongue" moment when you know what you want to say
>but not the words in which to say it. I don't know if that helps.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mike
>
> --
> Mike Bennett
> Head of Semantics and Standards
> EDM Council
> Tel: +44 20 7917 9522
> Cell: +44 7721 420 730
> www.edmcouncil.org
> Semantics Repository: www.hypercube.co.uk/edmcouncil
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>[mailto:ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Steve Ray
> Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 1:47 PM
> To: 'Ontology Summit 2012 discussion'; 'Cory Casanave'
> Cc: simf-rfp@xxxxxxx; simfteam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [ontology-summit] First Model Bench Challenge
>
> I agree that the real value of this exercise is for us to dig as deep as we
> possibly can to model every conceivable interpretation of the concepts. This
> will give us a fantastic artifact for intercomparisons & round-robin
> exercises, as well as a great way to examine the different languages.
>
>
> Steven R. Ray, Ph.D.
> Distinguished Research Fellow
> Carnegie Mellon University
> NASA Research Park
> Building 23 (MS 23-11)
> P.O. Box 1
> Moffett Field, CA 94305-0001
> Email: steve.ray@xxxxxxxxxx
> Phone: (650) 587-3780
> Cell: (202) 316-6481
> Skype: steverayconsulting
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Paul Brown
> Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 6:58 AM
> To: Cory Casanave; Ontology Summit 2012 discussion
> Cc: simf-rfp@xxxxxxx; simfteam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [ontology-summit] First Model Bench Challenge
>
> A likely scenario drawn from this discussion is one in which one party views
> the marriage as the event while another party views the marriage as the
> state. They are never going to agree on a common definition, because each
> has its own concept. Yet these two concepts are definitely related: One
> marks the point of state transition that is part of the other's model.
>
> I think this is illustrative of situations (pardon the double entendre) we
> are going to encounter in the real world!
>
> -- PCB
>
> ****************************************************************************
> **************
> Paul C. Brown
> Principal Software Architect
> TIBCO Software Inc.
> Email: pbrown@xxxxxxxxx Mobile: 518-424-5360
>
> "Total architecture is not a choice - it is a concession to reality."
> Visit www.total-architecture.com
> Architecture Books:
> -- Succeeding With SOA: Realizing Business Value Through Total Architecture
> -- Implementing SOA: Total Architecture In Practice
> -- TIBCO Architecture Fundamentals
>
> The SOA Manifesto: soa-manifesto.org
>
> Read the TIBCO blog: www.thetibcoblog.com
> ****************************************************************************
> **************
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cory Casanave [mailto:cory-c@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 12:17 AM
> To: Ontology Summit 2012 discussion
> Cc: simfteam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; simf-rfp@xxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: [ontology-summit] First Model Bench Challenge
>
> I would agree - there are 2 concepts under the label "Marriage", a situation
> and an event. The intent of the example in the web page is the situation but
> you may well also represent the event for extra credit!
> -Cory
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:ontology-summit- bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Hans
>> Polzer
>> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 9:55 PM
>> To: 'Ontology Summit 2012 discussion'
>> Subject: Re: [ontology-summit] First Model Bench Challenge
>>
>> Isn't it both? Marriage is both a state transition (the rite that
>> signals the transition to a married state from an unmarried state),
>> and a steady state condition after the state transition occurs (as in
>> "their marriage has lasted for
>> 50 years"). The word "wedding" is often used to distinguish between
>> the state transition and the steady state condition, denoting the
>> former but not the latter (although common usage isn't always precise
>> on this point, as in "wedded bliss").
>>
>> Hans
>>
>> Hans
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jack
>> Ring
>> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 8:44 PM
>> To: doug@xxxxxxxxxx; Ontology Summit 2012 discussion
>> Subject: Re: [ontology-summit] First Model Bench Challenge
>>
>> ??
>> Marriage is a situation in which a couple BECOMES married.") On Apr
>> 30, 2012, at 1:39 PM, doug foxvog wrote:
>>
>>> Marriage is a situation in which a couple is married.")
>>
>>
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