Doug, (01)
I think my earlier reply makes it pretty clear that I agree with your
typical person in the street that detachable equipment is not ordinarily
considered part of the individual entity, including clothes and ornaments.
But there are contexts in which that is not the case. The quartermaster is
certainly interested in items of equipment as AIs, but the Jumpmaster is
primarily concerned with getting the paratrooper safely out the door of the
airplane at the proper drop zone and time. The loadmaster is mainly
concerned with the total weight that will be on the airplane, not itemizing
the items being carried by the paratroopers. The unit commander's concern is
that each paratrooper is properly equipped for the mission, but not
necessarily in all the individual items carried by the paratrooper. (02)
And yes, a boarding pass is effectively considered to be part of the
passenger from an airline gate attendant perspective. Likewise, in the
corporate environment that I am familiar with, one is effectively
inseparable from one's ID Badge, at least while roaming controlled
facilities - everyone I worked it. If surgically implanting RFID were
socially acceptable, I suspect they would have done that as well. Some
people already do that with pets and even their own children. Of course, ID
Badges and people are usually treated as separate entities in other
contexts, such as ordering a supply of new/replacement badges or terminating
an employee. (03)
Glad we agree on the remaining paragraphs :-) (04)
Hans (05)
-----Original Message-----
From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of doug foxvog
Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 3:09 PM
To: [ontolog-forum]
Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] What is the role of an upper level ontology? (06)
On Wed, May 22, 2013 22:53, Hans Polzer wrote:
> In a team context, (or in a corporate environment), specific uniforms
> and equipment are considered to be essential parts of the players, (07)
???? Equipment of a person in an environment may be essential for the
person to wear or manipulate, but the person on the street (unless perhaps
s/he is a philosopher, ontologist, or has an IQ less than 75) would not
consider that person's detachable equipment to be *part* of the person. (08)
> so I would expect the individual player boundary to include said
> uniforms/equipment. (09)
If you want to define such a theory in HP_Microtheory, go ahead. But don't
be surprised if few people would inherit such a microtheory into their KB. (010)
> But I would not expect that when those same players go to their
> doctor's examining room.
> A paratrooper with full pack/gear weighs a lot more than that same
> paratrooper taking a shower in the barracks that morning. But in
> different contexts they are both considered atomic individuals (011)
By whom? I suspect that a very low percent of those who think they know
what an "atomic individual" is would consider a paratrooper with a full pack
to be such. A user of that term would consider the paratrooper to be an AI,
the pack to be an AI, the chute inside the pack to be an AI, each item of
clothing worn by the paratrooper to be an AI, and possibly removable parts
(shoe laces, buckles, straps, ...) to each be an AI. (012)
> (try getting on the plane without your gear - or your office without
> your "uniform"). (013)
If a person needs a ticket to get on a plane, does that mean the ticket is
part of that person in your microtheory? If a person needs a badge to enter
a secure facility, and also needs data in a specific computer file to
correspond to data on the badge, does that mean that both the badge and the
data in that computer file are part of the person? (014)
> My whole point is that what constitutes the boundary of the
> entity/individual, at whatever level of aggregation or decomposition,
> is contextual. (015)
I agree with this statement and the below paragraph. (016)
-- doug foxvog (017)
> We carry around implicit assumptions of what a "normal" context is for
> any particular entity we might have a discourse about or represent in
> our systems.
> And these are often "safe" to assume in a broad range of operational
> contexts we encounter. But they are not universally applicable - and
> lead to interoperability problems when we encounter systems that don't
> share those assumed "normal" contexts (often for very good reasons -
> per the discussion above).
> This is especially problematic when organizations push for
> establishing "authoritative sources" for information about entities in
> their scope of concern without also specifying the range of
> operational contexts over which said authoritative sources are in fact
> authoritative (and outside of which "your mileage may vary", or "there
> be monsters here").
>
> Hans
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Matthew
> West
> Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 4:18 AM
> To: '[ontolog-forum] '
> Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] What is the role of an upper level ontology?
>
> Dear Hans,
> Do you expect people to turn up to work without clothes?
>
> Regards
>
> Matthew West
> Information Junction
> Tel: +44 1489 880185
> Mobile: +44 750 3385279
> Skype: dr.matthew.west
> matthew.west@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> http://www.informationjunction.co.uk/
> https://sites.google.com/site/drmatthewwest/
> This email originates from Information Junction Ltd. Registered in
> England and Wales No. 6632177.
> Registered office: 8 Ennismore Close, Letchworth Garden City,
> Hertfordshire,
> SG6 2SU.
>
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontolog-forum-
>> bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Hans Polzer
>> Sent: 22 May 2013 03:29
>> To: '[ontolog-forum] '
>> Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] What is the role of an upper level
>> ontology?
>>
>> Don't forget that the weight of the team - full team or playing team
>> -
> usually
>> includes their uniforms and playing equipment, depending on the
>> specific sport. The traveling team for, say, charter airline
>> purposes, has a
> different
>> weight as well, since it includes non-playing equipment and
>> personnel, as
> well
>> as other, non-sport specific, baggage. So the physical composition
>> and associated weight of the team depends not only on temporal
>> context but
> also on
>> operational context and the perspective from which that operational
> context is
>> viewed.
>>
>> This is not a hypothetical issue - similar issues arise all the time
>> in planning and executing military operations and their associated
>> logistics, since any given "unit" can have variations in personnel
>> and equipment,
> both in
>> authorized and actual state, as well as "customized" variations for
> specific
>> operations and potential courses of action. And yet these units are
>> still treated as the same atomic "unit" in many other contexts and
>> perspectives (i.e., the variations are effectively ignored -
>> sometimes
> inappropriately).
>>
>> Hans
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Matthew
>> West
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 12:33 PM
>> To: doug@xxxxxxxxxx; '[ontolog-forum] '
>> Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] What is the role of an upper level
>> ontology?
>>
>> Dear Doug,
>>
>> >
>> > On Tue, May 21, 2013 04:06, Matthew West wrote:
>> > > Dear Doug,
>> >
>> > >> > Take the team/club example.
>> > >> > It seems obvious to me that a team member is indeed a
>> > >> > mereological part-of the team, at least if we ignore temporal
>> > >> > extents (We might have to say, the temporal part of the member
>> > >> > during the time interval that the team exists, is part-of the
>> > >> > team.)
>> >
>> > The temporal part of the member is an organizational member of the
>> > team
>> during
>> > some interval that is a temporal part of the temporal intersection
>> > of the person and the team. No current team member of Manchester
>> > United was a
>> member
>> > during the full temporal extent of the team.
>>
>> MW: No, the team member is already a temporal part of a person whilst
>> they
> are
>> a team member, you don't need to do it twice. The Manchester United
>> team naturally consists of the team member temporal parts of all
>> those who have been members of the team. That is just standard 4D
mereology.
>> >
>> > >> Why do you consider the team to have a spatial extent?
>> > >> I'd resist such a model.
>> > >> Does the team have a mass and a volume?
>> >
>> > > MW: Well I sail, and I can confirm that there are occasions when
>> > > the weight of the crew has a limit set on it for a class of boat.
>> >
>> > Does that weight limit include the weight of alternate crew members?
>> > If not, it is not a limit on the team, but collectively on the
>> > group of individuals from the team who are competing.
>>
>> MW: The team in this case is those on the boat whilst racing. There
>> may
> well
>> be alternate team members. This is much the same as on a football
>> (soccer) pitch when there are substitutes on the bench. There are two
>> levels of
> team
>> here. From a systems engineering point of view the subs are spare parts.
>> Would you consider spare parts part of the system they were spare
>> parts
> for?
>> >
>> > > Interestingly you can even in some cases have more lighter people
>> > > or fewer heavier people within the rules.
>> > > So I would definitely go for a team having a mereological
>> > > relationship to its members.
>> >
>> > An organization of people is different from the group of people who
>> > are
>> its
>> > current members.
>> MW: Yes. But a race team only exists whilst it is on the boat racing.
>> It
> may
>> be a spatio-temporal part of some larger organization.
>>
>> > A time slice of such an organization is different from a time slice
>> > of that group of people even if there is no change in
>> > organizational membership during the time slice.
>>
>> MW: Of course, they are different things.
>> >
>> > The crew of a vehicle is a temporary group of people, and as such
>> > has a mereological relationship to its instantaneous group members.
>> > The members
>> of
>> > the group may or may not be organizational members of the same
>> organization.
>>
>> MW: All organizations are temporary. I am not aware of any that exist
>> for
> all
>> time.
>>
>> > I'd hazard a guess that in competition there is a weight limit for
>> > the
>> boat,
>> > no matter how that weight is distributed among crew, passengers (if
>> allowed),
>> > beer coolers, and ballast.
>>
>> MW: Well there is a safe load limit, but that is different. The crew
> weight
>> limit is because the crew is partly movable ballast, whereas the
>> other
> things
>> you mention are not. Moveable ballast allows you to improve the
> performance of
>> the boat by increasing righting moment, keeping the mast closer to
> vertical,
>> which improves the efficiency of the sails. Other goods carried only
>> add weight, which increases wetted surface area, which reduces speed.
>> The
> usual
>> rule for inanimate objects is that they must be stowed in fixed
>> positions.
>> There are of course exceptions like the use of water ballast, or
>> canting keels. Class rules usually determine if these are permitted
>> or not, and whether they care about crew weight.
>> >
>> > Many organized sports teams have more organizational members than
>> > may
>> compete
>> > at a single time.
>>
>> MW: there are simply two levels of organization: the full team, and
>> the playing team.
>>
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Matthew West
>> Information Junction
>> Tel: +44 1489 880185
>> Mobile: +44 750 3385279
>> Skype: dr.matthew.west
>> matthew.west@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> http://www.informationjunction.co.uk/
>> https://sites.google.com/site/drmatthewwest/
>> This email originates from Information Junction Ltd. Registered in
>> England
> and
>> Wales No. 6632177.
>> Registered office: 8 Ennismore Close, Letchworth Garden City,
> Hertfordshire,
>> SG6 2SU.
>>
>> >
>> > > However, there is also the question of roles, so in a crew, one
>> > > is the helm, another the tactician, two or more are grinders,
>> > > whilst others are trimmers. So that is another kind of
>> > > constitution a team has. One does not exclude another.
>> >
>> > Certainly not.
>> >
>> > -- doug foxvog
>> >
>> > > Regards
>> > >
>> > > Matthew West
>> > > Information Junction
>> > > Tel: +44 1489 880185
>> > > Mobile: +44 750 3385279
>> > > Skype: dr.matthew.west
>> > > matthew.west@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > > http://www.informationjunction.co.uk/
>> > > https://sites.google.com/site/drmatthewwest/
>> > > This email originates from Information Junction Ltd. Registered
>> > > in England and Wales No. 6632177.
>> > > Registered office: 8 Ennismore Close, Letchworth Garden City,
>> > > Hertfordshire,
>> > > SG6 2SU.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >>
>> > >> -- doug foxvog
>> > >>
>> > >> > It is far less
>> > >> > obvious that the team is part-of the club; indeed, that seems
>> > >> > like a category mistake. (Does a club have a spatiotemporal
>> > >> > extent?) And it is surly not true to say that a club is
>> > >> > part-of a federation. I don't see a federation as being a
>> > >> > mereological whole. So, part-of is indeed transitive, its is
>> > >> > easy to describe, and it has nothing much to do with
>> > >> > federations. That all seems pretty
>> obvious to me.
>> Next
>> > question?
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Pat Hayes
>> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> > >> > IHMC (850)434 8903 or
>> (650)494
>> > >> 3973
>> > >> > 40 South Alcaniz St. (850)202 4416 office
>> > >> > Pensacola (850)202 4440 fax
>> > >> > FL 32502 (850)291 0667 mobile
>> > >> > phayesAT-SIGNihmc.us http://www.ihmc.us/users/phayes
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
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