Dear Hans, (01)
> I think we've had this discussion before regarding what I called
"conceptual
> reality". I understand you have difficulty envisioning an organization as
not
> having any spatial extent, possibly because there is almost always some
> physical manifestation of the organization, such as assets and members. (02)
MW: It would be more accurate to say that I reject conceptual individuals,
such as you claim organizations to be. (03)
> But
> members exist physically independent of the organization, and members come
and
> go while the organization continues (temporal extent independent of any
> specific members).
> And physical assets also have existence independent of the
> organization - they continue to exist if the organization disappears (due
to
> bankruptcy, for example). (04)
MW: That does not prevent organizations being constituted from temporal
parts of those things. (05)
> Such assets may be "owned" by the organization, but
> they don't define the organization or its existence. (06)
MW: They are not what brings it into being, but what brings something into
being is not usually the same as what constitutes something. (07)
> In most cases, formal
> organizations are defined by a piece of paper filed with some governing
body. (08)
MW: Indeed. The agreement that the piece of paper represents is what brings
the organization into existence. But as I pointed out above, that is not
what constitutes the organization. (09)
> But even that piece of paper is not the physical manifestation of the
> organization - if it gets destroyed (fire, tornado, etc.), it will be
readily
> replaced. (010)
MW: Quite. See above. (011)
> Fundamentally an organization is an agreement among participants to
> associate with each other for some stated purpose/duration under some
> governing rules (bylaws, regulations, etc.). (012)
MW: Well to be picky, the agreement is what brings the organization into
existence, it is the fulfilment of the agreement that is the organization
itself. (013)
> But the physicality of the
> participants doesn't define the spatial extent of the organization except
in
> some fairly narrow contexts/perspectives. (014)
MW: The fulfilment of an agreement is an activity, and an activity (in 4D at
least) consists of the temporal parts of the participants in that activity,
i.e. people in their organizational roles, and assets etc in theirs. (015)
> The agreement itself has no
> physicality or associated spatial extent aside from the piece of paper
that it
> might be written on. (016)
MW: Agreeing is also an activity, and so has spatio-temporal extent. The
piece of paper is obviously a spatio-temporal extent, but at least we agree
that this is not the organization. (017)
> And some organizations exist in virtual realities such as
> "Second Life" with no real world spatial dimensions at all - unless you
want
> to argue that they exist in physical reality as bits encoded in some
servers
> (and backup servers) somewhere on the net. (018)
MW: Yes I do of course. That is the spatio-temporal reality in this world -
without it there is on second life, the question is then what does it
represent. The answer is a possible world that happens in the cyber space
created. These are also spatio-temporal extents, just not ones in this
world, and not always with the same rules. (019)
> I guess I don't see how it is
> useful to know the spatial extent of those bits in order to consider an
> organization as an individual.
>
> Let's take another example - money. What are the spatial dimensions of
your
> financial assets, other than currency in your wallet and maybe a coin
> collection at home? For all practical purposes, I submit that most of our
> monetary assets have no discernible (or operative) spatial dimensions,
aside
> from being associated with digital bits somewhere in the environs of the
> planet Earth (and that may change before too long - when cloud computing
> becomes "nebula computing"). (020)
MW: You have answered your own question. Try having money without some
physical reality. It is not possible. (021)
> Some global disaster might prove me wrong - and
> push for that nebular computing environment. (022)
MW: The server farm will be somewhere, even if you do not know or care
where. (023)
Regards (024)
Matthew West
Information Junction
Tel: +44 1489 880185
Mobile: +44 750 3385279
Skype: dr.matthew.west
matthew.west@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
http://www.informationjunction.co.uk/
https://sites.google.com/site/drmatthewwest/
This email originates from Information Junction Ltd. Registered in England
and Wales No. 6632177.
Registered office: 8 Ennismore Close, Letchworth Garden City, Hertfordshire,
SG6 2SU. (025)
>
> Hans
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Matthew West
> Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 4:18 AM
> To: doug@xxxxxxxxxx; '[ontolog-forum] '
> Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] What is the role of an upper level ontology?
>
> Dear Doug,
>
> > On Tue, May 21, 2013 12:39, Matthew West wrote:
> > > Dear Doug,
> > > I would say that differently:
> >
> > In 4D, i would too. But i would consider the organization an object
> > with
> a
> > temporal, but not a spatial dimension.
>
> MW: That is a rather half hearted 4 dimensionalism. I go for strong 4D
which
> has the 4D extent as the identity of any individual (not a set or
> relationship). So I do not even know what it means to exist if you have a
> temporal but not a spatial extent.
> In the strong 4D that I use, an organization consists of the temporal
parts of
> the people involved in it, whilst they are in an organizational role.
> Note that I have no problem constructing one kind of object out of the
> temporal parts of another kind (or kinds) of object.
> In any case, given the nature of space-time, I don't know what it means
to
> exist with a temporal extent, but no spatial extent.
> I therefore reject abstract individuals as an unnecessary commitment.
> >
> > >> I consider the team to be an organization. People become for a
> > >> time organizational members. That is a relationship between them
> > >> and the intangible organization.
> >
> > > MW: I would say that there is temporal part of the person that is a
> > > spatio-temporal part of the organization. There is also the matter
> > > of the role they play, but that is another matter.
> >
> > I would say that there is a temporal part of a person that plays the
> > role
> of
> > member in the organization. I would not consider that temporal part
> > of
> the
> > person to be a spatial part of a non-spatial organization.
>
> MW: As I said above. Given the nature of space-time I don't know what it
is to
> exist with a temporal extent without also having a spatial extent.
> >
> > Would you say, "Part of the Red Sox has a daughter named Sue."?
>
> MW: That strikes me as rather unlikely, but not impossible. Let us look at
the
> case. Presumably you do not mean any part of the Red Sox (say all the
> pitchers, or the right arm of one of them) but a particular player. Of
course,
> a particular player is not the whole life of the person, but the temporal
part
> of the person whilst they are a player for the Red Sox. Now what has a
> daughter is a father (or mother - but I am going to presume that there are
no
> women players for the Red Sox). The father is the temporal part of the
person
> from when the daughter is born until they die (I presume that you remain a
> father until your death, even if your daughter dies before you
> - you could make other choices). Now it is true that a Red Sox player has
a
> daughter if the temporal part of the person is identical to (has the same
> spatio-temporal extent) as the father of the daughter. That is unlikely,
but
> if the person who had a temporal part that was a Red Sox Player, and had a
> temporal part that was a father and the daughter was born exactly when
they
> joined the Red Sox and they died whilst still a Red Sox player, then
indeed, a
> part of the Red Sox would have a daughter.
>
> Regards
>
> Matthew West
> Information Junction
> Tel: +44 1489 880185
> Mobile: +44 750 3385279
> Skype: dr.matthew.west
> matthew.west@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> http://www.informationjunction.co.uk/
> https://sites.google.com/site/drmatthewwest/
> This email originates from Information Junction Ltd. Registered in England
and
> Wales No. 6632177.
> Registered office: 8 Ennismore Close, Letchworth Garden City,
Hertfordshire,
> SG6 2SU.
>
>
>
> >
> > -- doug foxvog
> >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > > Matthew West
> > > Information Junction
> > > Tel: +44 1489 880185
> > > Mobile: +44 750 3385279
> > > Skype: dr.matthew.west
> > > matthew.west@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > http://www.informationjunction.co.uk/
> > > https://sites.google.com/site/drmatthewwest/
> > > This email originates from Information Junction Ltd. Registered in
> > > England and Wales No. 6632177.
> > > Registered office: 8 Ennismore Close, Letchworth Garden City,
> > > Hertfordshire,
> > > SG6 2SU.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
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