Dear Hans,
Broadly I think we agree about this, but I would put it differently.
You seem to me to be saying, that I have a number of different weights,
depending on whether I am a fully kitted paratrooper, or weighing myself in
my bathroom, or sailing my yacht.
I would say that there are a number of different objects, me without
clothes, me with paratroopers kit, me with sailing kit. The question is
which of these objects is of interest. However, they have different
spatio-temporal extents, so they are different (each includes a state of
me). (01)
Regards (02)
Matthew West
Information Junction
Tel: +44 1489 880185
Mobile: +44 750 3385279
Skype: dr.matthew.west
matthew.west@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
http://www.informationjunction.co.uk/
https://sites.google.com/site/drmatthewwest/
This email originates from Information Junction Ltd. Registered in England
and Wales No. 6632177.
Registered office: 8 Ennismore Close, Letchworth Garden City, Hertfordshire,
SG6 2SU. (03)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontolog-forum-
> bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Hans Polzer
> Sent: 23 May 2013 03:53
> To: '[ontolog-forum] '
> Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] What is the role of an upper level ontology?
>
> When I weigh myself in the morning, it is without clothes :-). But I
thought
> the discussion was about boundaries and individuals. I don't think of
clothes
> as being part of me. And I put on different clothes and gear/equipment
> depending on what activity/organization I might participate in. In a team
> context, (or in a corporate environment), specific uniforms and equipment
are
> considered to be essential parts of the players, so I would expect the
> individual player boundary to include said uniforms/equipment. But I would
not
> expect that when those same players go to their doctor's examining room. A
> paratrooper with full pack/gear weighs a lot more than that same
paratrooper
> taking a shower in the barracks that morning. But in different contexts
they
> are both considered atomic individuals (try getting on the plane without
your
> gear - or your office without your "uniform").
>
> My whole point is that what constitutes the boundary of the
entity/individual,
> at whatever level of aggregation or decomposition, is contextual. We carry
> around implicit assumptions of what a "normal" context is for any
particular
> entity we might have a discourse about or represent in our systems. And
these
> are often "safe" to assume in a broad range of operational contexts we
> encounter. But they are not universally applicable - and lead to
> interoperability problems when we encounter systems that don't share those
> assumed "normal" contexts (often for very good reasons - per the
discussion
> above). This is especially problematic when organizations push for
> establishing "authoritative sources" for information about entities in
their
> scope of concern without also specifying the range of operational contexts
> over which said authoritative sources are in fact authoritative (and
outside
> of which "your mileage may vary", or "there be monsters here").
>
> Hans
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Matthew West
> Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 4:18 AM
> To: '[ontolog-forum] '
> Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] What is the role of an upper level ontology?
>
> Dear Hans,
> Do you expect people to turn up to work without clothes?
>
> Regards
>
> Matthew West
> Information Junction
> Tel: +44 1489 880185
> Mobile: +44 750 3385279
> Skype: dr.matthew.west
> matthew.west@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> http://www.informationjunction.co.uk/
> https://sites.google.com/site/drmatthewwest/
> This email originates from Information Junction Ltd. Registered in England
and
> Wales No. 6632177.
> Registered office: 8 Ennismore Close, Letchworth Garden City,
Hertfordshire,
> SG6 2SU.
>
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontolog-forum-
> > bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Hans Polzer
> > Sent: 22 May 2013 03:29
> > To: '[ontolog-forum] '
> > Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] What is the role of an upper level
ontology?
> >
> > Don't forget that the weight of the team - full team or playing team -
> usually
> > includes their uniforms and playing equipment, depending on the
> > specific sport. The traveling team for, say, charter airline
> > purposes, has a
> different
> > weight as well, since it includes non-playing equipment and personnel,
> > as
> well
> > as other, non-sport specific, baggage. So the physical composition and
> > associated weight of the team depends not only on temporal context but
> also on
> > operational context and the perspective from which that operational
> context is
> > viewed.
> >
> > This is not a hypothetical issue - similar issues arise all the time
> > in planning and executing military operations and their associated
> > logistics, since any given "unit" can have variations in personnel and
> > equipment,
> both in
> > authorized and actual state, as well as "customized" variations for
> specific
> > operations and potential courses of action. And yet these units are
> > still treated as the same atomic "unit" in many other contexts and
> > perspectives (i.e., the variations are effectively ignored - sometimes
> inappropriately).
> >
> > Hans
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Matthew
> > West
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 12:33 PM
> > To: doug@xxxxxxxxxx; '[ontolog-forum] '
> > Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] What is the role of an upper level
ontology?
> >
> > Dear Doug,
> >
> > >
> > > On Tue, May 21, 2013 04:06, Matthew West wrote:
> > > > Dear Doug,
> > >
> > > >> > Take the team/club example.
> > > >> > It seems obvious to me that a team member is indeed a
> > > >> > mereological part-of the team, at least if we ignore temporal
> > > >> > extents (We might have to say, the temporal part of the member
> > > >> > during the time interval that the team exists, is part-of the
> > > >> > team.)
> > >
> > > The temporal part of the member is an organizational member of the
> > > team
> > during
> > > some interval that is a temporal part of the temporal intersection
> > > of the person and the team. No current team member of Manchester
> > > United was a
> > member
> > > during the full temporal extent of the team.
> >
> > MW: No, the team member is already a temporal part of a person whilst
> > they
> are
> > a team member, you don't need to do it twice. The Manchester United
> > team naturally consists of the team member temporal parts of all those
> > who have been members of the team. That is just standard 4D mereology.
> > >
> > > >> Why do you consider the team to have a spatial extent?
> > > >> I'd resist such a model.
> > > >> Does the team have a mass and a volume?
> > >
> > > > MW: Well I sail, and I can confirm that there are occasions when
> > > > the weight of the crew has a limit set on it for a class of boat.
> > >
> > > Does that weight limit include the weight of alternate crew members?
> > > If not, it is not a limit on the team, but collectively on the group
> > > of individuals from the team who are competing.
> >
> > MW: The team in this case is those on the boat whilst racing. There
> > may
> well
> > be alternate team members. This is much the same as on a football
> > (soccer) pitch when there are substitutes on the bench. There are two
> > levels of
> team
> > here. From a systems engineering point of view the subs are spare parts.
> > Would you consider spare parts part of the system they were spare
> > parts
> for?
> > >
> > > > Interestingly you can even in some cases have more lighter people
> > > > or fewer heavier people within the rules.
> > > > So I would definitely go for a team having a mereological
> > > > relationship to its members.
> > >
> > > An organization of people is different from the group of people who
> > > are
> > its
> > > current members.
> > MW: Yes. But a race team only exists whilst it is on the boat racing.
> > It
> may
> > be a spatio-temporal part of some larger organization.
> >
> > > A time slice of such an organization is different from a time slice
> > > of that group of people even if there is no change in organizational
> > > membership during the time slice.
> >
> > MW: Of course, they are different things.
> > >
> > > The crew of a vehicle is a temporary group of people, and as such
> > > has a mereological relationship to its instantaneous group members.
> > > The members
> > of
> > > the group may or may not be organizational members of the same
> > organization.
> >
> > MW: All organizations are temporary. I am not aware of any that exist
> > for
> all
> > time.
> >
> > > I'd hazard a guess that in competition there is a weight limit for
> > > the
> > boat,
> > > no matter how that weight is distributed among crew, passengers (if
> > allowed),
> > > beer coolers, and ballast.
> >
> > MW: Well there is a safe load limit, but that is different. The crew
> weight
> > limit is because the crew is partly movable ballast, whereas the other
> things
> > you mention are not. Moveable ballast allows you to improve the
> performance of
> > the boat by increasing righting moment, keeping the mast closer to
> vertical,
> > which improves the efficiency of the sails. Other goods carried only
> > add weight, which increases wetted surface area, which reduces speed.
> > The
> usual
> > rule for inanimate objects is that they must be stowed in fixed
positions.
> > There are of course exceptions like the use of water ballast, or
> > canting keels. Class rules usually determine if these are permitted or
> > not, and whether they care about crew weight.
> > >
> > > Many organized sports teams have more organizational members than
> > > may
> > compete
> > > at a single time.
> >
> > MW: there are simply two levels of organization: the full team, and
> > the playing team.
> >
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Matthew West
> > Information Junction
> > Tel: +44 1489 880185
> > Mobile: +44 750 3385279
> > Skype: dr.matthew.west
> > matthew.west@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > http://www.informationjunction.co.uk/
> > https://sites.google.com/site/drmatthewwest/
> > This email originates from Information Junction Ltd. Registered in
> > England
> and
> > Wales No. 6632177.
> > Registered office: 8 Ennismore Close, Letchworth Garden City,
> Hertfordshire,
> > SG6 2SU.
> >
> > >
> > > > However, there is also the question of roles, so in a crew, one is
> > > > the helm, another the tactician, two or more are grinders, whilst
> > > > others are trimmers. So that is another kind of constitution a
> > > > team has. One does not exclude another.
> > >
> > > Certainly not.
> > >
> > > -- doug foxvog
> > >
> > > > Regards
> > > >
> > > > Matthew West
> > > > Information Junction
> > > > Tel: +44 1489 880185
> > > > Mobile: +44 750 3385279
> > > > Skype: dr.matthew.west
> > > > matthew.west@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > http://www.informationjunction.co.uk/
> > > > https://sites.google.com/site/drmatthewwest/
> > > > This email originates from Information Junction Ltd. Registered in
> > > > England and Wales No. 6632177.
> > > > Registered office: 8 Ennismore Close, Letchworth Garden City,
> > > > Hertfordshire,
> > > > SG6 2SU.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>
> > > >> -- doug foxvog
> > > >>
> > > >> > It is far less
> > > >> > obvious that the team is part-of the club; indeed, that seems
> > > >> > like a category mistake. (Does a club have a spatiotemporal
> > > >> > extent?) And it is surly not true to say that a club is part-of
> > > >> > a federation. I don't see a federation as being a mereological
> > > >> > whole. So, part-of is indeed transitive, its is easy to
> > > >> > describe, and it has nothing much to do with federations. That
> > > >> > all seems pretty
> > obvious to me.
> > Next
> > > question?
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Pat Hayes
> > > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >> > IHMC (850)434 8903 or
(650)494
> > > >> 3973
> > > >> > 40 South Alcaniz St. (850)202 4416 office
> > > >> > Pensacola (850)202 4440 fax
> > > >> > FL 32502 (850)291 0667 mobile
> > > >> > phayesAT-SIGNihmc.us http://www.ihmc.us/users/phayes
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> _________________________________________________________________
> > > >> Message Archives: http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontolog-forum/
> > > >> Config Subscr:
> > > >> http://ontolog.cim3.net/mailman/listinfo/ontolog-forum/
> > > >> Unsubscribe: mailto:ontolog-forum-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >> Shared Files: http://ontolog.cim3.net/file/ Community Wiki:
> > > >> http://ontolog.cim3.net/wiki/ To join:
> > > >> http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi- bin/wiki.pl?WikiHomePage#nid1J
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > Message Archives: http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontolog-forum/
> > > Config Subscr:
> > > http://ontolog.cim3.net/mailman/listinfo/ontolog-forum/
> > > Unsubscribe: mailto:ontolog-forum-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Shared Files: http://ontolog.cim3.net/file/ Community Wiki:
> > > http://ontolog.cim3.net/wiki/ To join: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-
> > > bin/wiki.pl?WikiHomePage#nid1J
> > >
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Message Archives: http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontolog-forum/
> > Config Subscr: http://ontolog.cim3.net/mailman/listinfo/ontolog-forum/
> > Unsubscribe: mailto:ontolog-forum-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Shared Files: http://ontolog.cim3.net/file/ Community Wiki:
> > http://ontolog.cim3.net/wiki/ To join:
> > http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?WikiHomePage#nid1J
> >
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Message Archives: http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontolog-forum/
> > Config Subscr: http://ontolog.cim3.net/mailman/listinfo/ontolog-forum/
> > Unsubscribe: mailto:ontolog-forum-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Shared Files: http://ontolog.cim3.net/file/ Community Wiki:
> > http://ontolog.cim3.net/wiki/ To join: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-
> > bin/wiki.pl?WikiHomePage#nid1J
> >
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Message Archives: http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontolog-forum/
> Config Subscr: http://ontolog.cim3.net/mailman/listinfo/ontolog-forum/
> Unsubscribe: mailto:ontolog-forum-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Shared Files: http://ontolog.cim3.net/file/ Community Wiki:
> http://ontolog.cim3.net/wiki/ To join:
> http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?WikiHomePage#nid1J
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Message Archives: http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontolog-forum/
> Config Subscr: http://ontolog.cim3.net/mailman/listinfo/ontolog-forum/
> Unsubscribe: mailto:ontolog-forum-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Shared Files: http://ontolog.cim3.net/file/ Community Wiki:
> http://ontolog.cim3.net/wiki/ To join: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-
> bin/wiki.pl?WikiHomePage#nid1J
> (04)
_________________________________________________________________
Message Archives: http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontolog-forum/
Config Subscr: http://ontolog.cim3.net/mailman/listinfo/ontolog-forum/
Unsubscribe: mailto:ontolog-forum-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Shared Files: http://ontolog.cim3.net/file/
Community Wiki: http://ontolog.cim3.net/wiki/
To join: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?WikiHomePage#nid1J (05)
|