When I weigh myself in the morning, it is without clothes :-). But I thought
the discussion was about boundaries and individuals. I don't think of
clothes as being part of me. And I put on different clothes and
gear/equipment depending on what activity/organization I might participate
in. In a team context, (or in a corporate environment), specific uniforms
and equipment are considered to be essential parts of the players, so I
would expect the individual player boundary to include said
uniforms/equipment. But I would not expect that when those same players go
to their doctor's examining room. A paratrooper with full pack/gear weighs a
lot more than that same paratrooper taking a shower in the barracks that
morning. But in different contexts they are both considered atomic
individuals (try getting on the plane without your gear - or your office
without your "uniform"). (01)
My whole point is that what constitutes the boundary of the
entity/individual, at whatever level of aggregation or decomposition, is
contextual. We carry around implicit assumptions of what a "normal" context
is for any particular entity we might have a discourse about or represent in
our systems. And these are often "safe" to assume in a broad range of
operational contexts we encounter. But they are not universally applicable -
and lead to interoperability problems when we encounter systems that don't
share those assumed "normal" contexts (often for very good reasons - per the
discussion above). This is especially problematic when organizations push
for establishing "authoritative sources" for information about entities in
their scope of concern without also specifying the range of operational
contexts over which said authoritative sources are in fact authoritative
(and outside of which "your mileage may vary", or "there be monsters here"). (02)
Hans (03)
-----Original Message-----
From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Matthew West
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 4:18 AM
To: '[ontolog-forum] '
Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] What is the role of an upper level ontology? (04)
Dear Hans,
Do you expect people to turn up to work without clothes? (05)
Regards (06)
Matthew West
Information Junction
Tel: +44 1489 880185
Mobile: +44 750 3385279
Skype: dr.matthew.west
matthew.west@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
http://www.informationjunction.co.uk/
https://sites.google.com/site/drmatthewwest/
This email originates from Information Junction Ltd. Registered in England
and Wales No. 6632177.
Registered office: 8 Ennismore Close, Letchworth Garden City, Hertfordshire,
SG6 2SU. (07)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontolog-forum-
> bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Hans Polzer
> Sent: 22 May 2013 03:29
> To: '[ontolog-forum] '
> Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] What is the role of an upper level ontology?
>
> Don't forget that the weight of the team - full team or playing team -
usually
> includes their uniforms and playing equipment, depending on the
> specific sport. The traveling team for, say, charter airline
> purposes, has a
different
> weight as well, since it includes non-playing equipment and personnel,
> as
well
> as other, non-sport specific, baggage. So the physical composition and
> associated weight of the team depends not only on temporal context but
also on
> operational context and the perspective from which that operational
context is
> viewed.
>
> This is not a hypothetical issue - similar issues arise all the time
> in planning and executing military operations and their associated
> logistics, since any given "unit" can have variations in personnel and
> equipment,
both in
> authorized and actual state, as well as "customized" variations for
specific
> operations and potential courses of action. And yet these units are
> still treated as the same atomic "unit" in many other contexts and
> perspectives (i.e., the variations are effectively ignored - sometimes
inappropriately).
>
> Hans
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Matthew
> West
> Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 12:33 PM
> To: doug@xxxxxxxxxx; '[ontolog-forum] '
> Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] What is the role of an upper level ontology?
>
> Dear Doug,
>
> >
> > On Tue, May 21, 2013 04:06, Matthew West wrote:
> > > Dear Doug,
> >
> > >> > Take the team/club example.
> > >> > It seems obvious to me that a team member is indeed a
> > >> > mereological part-of the team, at least if we ignore temporal
> > >> > extents (We might have to say, the temporal part of the member
> > >> > during the time interval that the team exists, is part-of the
> > >> > team.)
> >
> > The temporal part of the member is an organizational member of the
> > team
> during
> > some interval that is a temporal part of the temporal intersection
> > of the person and the team. No current team member of Manchester
> > United was a
> member
> > during the full temporal extent of the team.
>
> MW: No, the team member is already a temporal part of a person whilst
> they
are
> a team member, you don't need to do it twice. The Manchester United
> team naturally consists of the team member temporal parts of all those
> who have been members of the team. That is just standard 4D mereology.
> >
> > >> Why do you consider the team to have a spatial extent?
> > >> I'd resist such a model.
> > >> Does the team have a mass and a volume?
> >
> > > MW: Well I sail, and I can confirm that there are occasions when
> > > the weight of the crew has a limit set on it for a class of boat.
> >
> > Does that weight limit include the weight of alternate crew members?
> > If not, it is not a limit on the team, but collectively on the group
> > of individuals from the team who are competing.
>
> MW: The team in this case is those on the boat whilst racing. There
> may
well
> be alternate team members. This is much the same as on a football
> (soccer) pitch when there are substitutes on the bench. There are two
> levels of
team
> here. From a systems engineering point of view the subs are spare parts.
> Would you consider spare parts part of the system they were spare
> parts
for?
> >
> > > Interestingly you can even in some cases have more lighter people
> > > or fewer heavier people within the rules.
> > > So I would definitely go for a team having a mereological
> > > relationship to its members.
> >
> > An organization of people is different from the group of people who
> > are
> its
> > current members.
> MW: Yes. But a race team only exists whilst it is on the boat racing.
> It
may
> be a spatio-temporal part of some larger organization.
>
> > A time slice of such an organization is different from a time slice
> > of that group of people even if there is no change in organizational
> > membership during the time slice.
>
> MW: Of course, they are different things.
> >
> > The crew of a vehicle is a temporary group of people, and as such
> > has a mereological relationship to its instantaneous group members.
> > The members
> of
> > the group may or may not be organizational members of the same
> organization.
>
> MW: All organizations are temporary. I am not aware of any that exist
> for
all
> time.
>
> > I'd hazard a guess that in competition there is a weight limit for
> > the
> boat,
> > no matter how that weight is distributed among crew, passengers (if
> allowed),
> > beer coolers, and ballast.
>
> MW: Well there is a safe load limit, but that is different. The crew
weight
> limit is because the crew is partly movable ballast, whereas the other
things
> you mention are not. Moveable ballast allows you to improve the
performance of
> the boat by increasing righting moment, keeping the mast closer to
vertical,
> which improves the efficiency of the sails. Other goods carried only
> add weight, which increases wetted surface area, which reduces speed.
> The
usual
> rule for inanimate objects is that they must be stowed in fixed positions.
> There are of course exceptions like the use of water ballast, or
> canting keels. Class rules usually determine if these are permitted or
> not, and whether they care about crew weight.
> >
> > Many organized sports teams have more organizational members than
> > may
> compete
> > at a single time.
>
> MW: there are simply two levels of organization: the full team, and
> the playing team.
>
>
> Regards
>
> Matthew West
> Information Junction
> Tel: +44 1489 880185
> Mobile: +44 750 3385279
> Skype: dr.matthew.west
> matthew.west@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> http://www.informationjunction.co.uk/
> https://sites.google.com/site/drmatthewwest/
> This email originates from Information Junction Ltd. Registered in
> England
and
> Wales No. 6632177.
> Registered office: 8 Ennismore Close, Letchworth Garden City,
Hertfordshire,
> SG6 2SU.
>
> >
> > > However, there is also the question of roles, so in a crew, one is
> > > the helm, another the tactician, two or more are grinders, whilst
> > > others are trimmers. So that is another kind of constitution a
> > > team has. One does not exclude another.
> >
> > Certainly not.
> >
> > -- doug foxvog
> >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > > Matthew West
> > > Information Junction
> > > Tel: +44 1489 880185
> > > Mobile: +44 750 3385279
> > > Skype: dr.matthew.west
> > > matthew.west@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > http://www.informationjunction.co.uk/
> > > https://sites.google.com/site/drmatthewwest/
> > > This email originates from Information Junction Ltd. Registered in
> > > England and Wales No. 6632177.
> > > Registered office: 8 Ennismore Close, Letchworth Garden City,
> > > Hertfordshire,
> > > SG6 2SU.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >>
> > >> -- doug foxvog
> > >>
> > >> > It is far less
> > >> > obvious that the team is part-of the club; indeed, that seems
> > >> > like a category mistake. (Does a club have a spatiotemporal
> > >> > extent?) And it is surly not true to say that a club is part-of
> > >> > a federation. I don't see a federation as being a mereological
> > >> > whole. So, part-of is indeed transitive, its is easy to
> > >> > describe, and it has nothing much to do with federations. That
> > >> > all seems pretty
> obvious to me.
> Next
> > question?
> > >> >
> > >> > Pat Hayes
> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> > IHMC (850)434 8903 or (650)494
> > >> 3973
> > >> > 40 South Alcaniz St. (850)202 4416 office
> > >> > Pensacola (850)202 4440 fax
> > >> > FL 32502 (850)291 0667 mobile
> > >> > phayesAT-SIGNihmc.us http://www.ihmc.us/users/phayes
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
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