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Re: [ontolog-forum] What is the role of an upper level ontology?

To: "'[ontolog-forum] '" <ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
From: "Matthew West" <dr.matthew.west@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: Wed, 22 May 2013 09:17:44 +0100
Message-id: <519c7f2a.230cb50a.62de.79df@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Dear Hans,
Do you expect people to turn up to work without clothes?    (01)

Regards    (02)

Matthew West                            
Information  Junction
Tel: +44 1489 880185
Mobile: +44 750 3385279
Skype: dr.matthew.west
matthew.west@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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This email originates from Information Junction Ltd. Registered in England
and Wales No. 6632177. 
Registered office: 8 Ennismore Close, Letchworth Garden City, Hertfordshire,
SG6 2SU.    (03)




> -----Original Message-----
> From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontolog-forum-
> bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Hans Polzer
> Sent: 22 May 2013 03:29
> To: '[ontolog-forum] '
> Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] What is the role of an upper level ontology?
> 
> Don't forget that the weight of the team - full team or playing team -
usually
> includes their uniforms and playing equipment, depending on the specific
> sport. The traveling team for, say,  charter airline purposes, has a
different
> weight as well, since it includes non-playing equipment and personnel, as
well
> as other, non-sport specific, baggage. So the physical composition and
> associated weight of the team depends not only on temporal context but
also on
> operational context and the perspective from which that operational
context is
> viewed.
> 
> This is not a hypothetical issue - similar issues arise all the time in
> planning and executing military operations and their associated logistics,
> since any given "unit" can have variations in personnel and equipment,
both in
> authorized and actual state, as well as "customized" variations for
specific
> operations and potential courses of action. And yet these units are still
> treated as the same atomic "unit" in many other contexts and perspectives
> (i.e., the variations are effectively ignored - sometimes
inappropriately).
> 
> Hans
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Matthew West
> Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 12:33 PM
> To: doug@xxxxxxxxxx; '[ontolog-forum] '
> Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] What is the role of an upper level ontology?
> 
> Dear Doug,
> 
> >
> > On Tue, May 21, 2013 04:06, Matthew West wrote:
> > > Dear Doug,
> >
> > >> > Take the team/club example.
> > >> > It seems obvious to me that a team member is indeed a
> > >> > mereological part-of the team, at least if we ignore temporal
> > >> > extents (We might have to say, the temporal part of the member
> > >> > during the time interval that the team exists, is part-of the
> > >> > team.)
> >
> > The temporal part of the member is an organizational member of the
> > team
> during
> > some interval that is a temporal part of the temporal intersection of
> > the person and the team.  No current team member of Manchester United
> > was a
> member
> > during the full temporal extent of the team.
> 
> MW: No, the team member is already a temporal part of a person whilst they
are
> a team member, you don't need to do it twice. The Manchester United team
> naturally consists of the team member temporal parts of all those who have
> been members of the team. That is just standard 4D mereology.
> >
> > >> Why do you consider the team to have a spatial extent?
> > >>  I'd resist such a model.
> > >>  Does the team have a mass and a volume?
> >
> > > MW: Well I sail, and I can confirm that there are occasions when the
> > > weight of the crew has a limit set on it for a class of boat.
> >
> > Does that weight limit include the weight of alternate crew members?
> > If not, it is not a limit on the team, but collectively on the group
> > of individuals from the team who are competing.
> 
> MW: The team in this case is those on the boat whilst racing. There may
well
> be alternate team members. This is much the same as on a football (soccer)
> pitch when there are substitutes on the bench. There are two levels of
team
> here. From a systems engineering point of view the subs are spare parts.
> Would you consider spare parts part of the system they were spare parts
for?
> >
> > > Interestingly you can even in some cases have more lighter people or
> > > fewer heavier people within the rules.
> > > So I would definitely go for a team having a mereological
> > > relationship to its members.
> >
> > An organization of people is different from the group of people who
> > are
> its
> > current members.
> MW: Yes. But a race team only exists whilst it is on the boat racing. It
may
> be a spatio-temporal part of some larger organization.
> 
> > A time slice of such an organization is different from a time slice of
> > that group of people even if there is no change in organizational
> > membership during the time slice.
> 
> MW: Of course, they are different things.
> >
> > The crew of a vehicle is a temporary group of people, and as such has
> > a mereological relationship to its instantaneous group members.  The
> > members
> of
> > the group may or may not be organizational members of the same
> organization.
> 
> MW: All organizations are temporary. I am not aware of any that exist for
all
> time.
> 
> > I'd hazard a guess that in competition there is a weight limit for the
> boat,
> > no matter how that weight is distributed among crew, passengers (if
> allowed),
> > beer coolers, and ballast.
> 
> MW: Well there is a safe load limit, but that is different. The crew
weight
> limit is because the crew is partly movable ballast, whereas the other
things
> you mention are not. Moveable ballast allows you to improve the
performance of
> the boat by increasing righting moment, keeping the mast closer to
vertical,
> which improves the efficiency of the sails. Other goods carried only add
> weight, which increases wetted surface area, which reduces speed. The
usual
> rule for inanimate objects is that they must be stowed in fixed positions.
> There are of course exceptions like the use of water ballast, or canting
> keels. Class rules usually determine if these are permitted or not, and
> whether they care about crew weight.
> >
> > Many organized sports teams have more organizational members than may
> compete
> > at a single time.
> 
> MW: there are simply two levels of organization: the full team, and the
> playing team.
> 
> 
> Regards
> 
> Matthew West
> Information  Junction
> Tel: +44 1489 880185
> Mobile: +44 750 3385279
> Skype: dr.matthew.west
> matthew.west@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> http://www.informationjunction.co.uk/
> https://sites.google.com/site/drmatthewwest/
> This email originates from Information Junction Ltd. Registered in England
and
> Wales No. 6632177.
> Registered office: 8 Ennismore Close, Letchworth Garden City,
Hertfordshire,
> SG6 2SU.
> 
> >
> > > However, there is also the question of roles, so in a crew, one is
> > > the helm, another the tactician, two or more are grinders, whilst
> > > others are trimmers. So that is another kind of constitution a team
> > > has. One does not exclude another.
> >
> > Certainly not.
> >
> > -- doug foxvog
> >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > > Matthew West
> > > Information  Junction
> > > Tel: +44 1489 880185
> > > Mobile: +44 750 3385279
> > > Skype: dr.matthew.west
> > > matthew.west@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > http://www.informationjunction.co.uk/
> > > https://sites.google.com/site/drmatthewwest/
> > > This email originates from Information Junction Ltd. Registered in
> > > England and Wales No. 6632177.
> > > Registered office: 8 Ennismore Close, Letchworth Garden City,
> > > Hertfordshire,
> > > SG6 2SU.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >>
> > >> -- doug foxvog
> > >>
> > >> > It is far less
> > >> > obvious that the team is part-of the club; indeed, that seems
> > >> > like a category mistake. (Does a club have a spatiotemporal
> > >> > extent?) And it is surly not true to say that a club is part-of a
> > >> > federation. I don't see a federation as being a mereological
> > >> > whole. So, part-of is indeed transitive, its is easy to describe,
> > >> > and it has nothing much to do with federations. That all seems
> > >> > pretty
> obvious to me.
> Next
> > question?
> > >> >
> > >> > Pat Hayes
> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------
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> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
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