Matthew, (01)
I think we've had this discussion before regarding what I called "conceptual
reality". I understand you have difficulty envisioning an organization as
not having any spatial extent, possibly because there is almost always some
physical manifestation of the organization, such as assets and members. But
members exist physically independent of the organization, and members come
and go while the organization continues (temporal extent independent of any
specific members). And physical assets also have existence independent of
the organization - they continue to exist if the organization disappears
(due to bankruptcy, for example). Such assets may be "owned" by the
organization, but they don't define the organization or its existence. In
most cases, formal organizations are defined by a piece of paper filed with
some governing body. But even that piece of paper is not the physical
manifestation of the organization - if it gets destroyed (fire, tornado,
etc.), it will be readily replaced. Fundamentally an organization is an
agreement among participants to associate with each other for some stated
purpose/duration under some governing rules (bylaws, regulations, etc.). But
the physicality of the participants doesn't define the spatial extent of the
organization except in some fairly narrow contexts/perspectives. The
agreement itself has no physicality or associated spatial extent aside from
the piece of paper that it might be written on. And some organizations exist
in virtual realities such as "Second Life" with no real world spatial
dimensions at all - unless you want to argue that they exist in physical
reality as bits encoded in some servers (and backup servers) somewhere on
the net. I guess I don't see how it is useful to know the spatial extent of
those bits in order to consider an organization as an individual. (02)
Let's take another example - money. What are the spatial dimensions of your
financial assets, other than currency in your wallet and maybe a coin
collection at home? For all practical purposes, I submit that most of our
monetary assets have no discernible (or operative) spatial dimensions, aside
from being associated with digital bits somewhere in the environs of the
planet Earth (and that may change before too long - when cloud computing
becomes "nebula computing"). Some global disaster might prove me wrong - and
push for that nebular computing environment. (03)
Hans (04)
-----Original Message-----
From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Matthew West
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 4:18 AM
To: doug@xxxxxxxxxx; '[ontolog-forum] '
Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] What is the role of an upper level ontology? (05)
Dear Doug, (06)
> On Tue, May 21, 2013 12:39, Matthew West wrote:
> > Dear Doug,
> > I would say that differently:
>
> In 4D, i would too. But i would consider the organization an object
> with
a
> temporal, but not a spatial dimension. (07)
MW: That is a rather half hearted 4 dimensionalism. I go for strong 4D which
has the 4D extent as the identity of any individual (not a set or
relationship). So I do not even know what it means to exist if you have a
temporal but not a spatial extent.
In the strong 4D that I use, an organization consists of the temporal parts
of the people involved in it, whilst they are in an organizational role.
Note that I have no problem constructing one kind of object out of the
temporal parts of another kind (or kinds) of object.
In any case, given the nature of space-time, I don't know what it means to
exist with a temporal extent, but no spatial extent.
I therefore reject abstract individuals as an unnecessary commitment.
>
> >> I consider the team to be an organization. People become for a
> >> time organizational members. That is a relationship between them
> >> and the intangible organization.
>
> > MW: I would say that there is temporal part of the person that is a
> > spatio-temporal part of the organization. There is also the matter
> > of the role they play, but that is another matter.
>
> I would say that there is a temporal part of a person that plays the
> role
of
> member in the organization. I would not consider that temporal part
> of
the
> person to be a spatial part of a non-spatial organization. (08)
MW: As I said above. Given the nature of space-time I don't know what it is
to exist with a temporal extent without also having a spatial extent.
>
> Would you say, "Part of the Red Sox has a daughter named Sue."? (09)
MW: That strikes me as rather unlikely, but not impossible. Let us look at
the case. Presumably you do not mean any part of the Red Sox (say all the
pitchers, or the right arm of one of them) but a particular player. Of
course, a particular player is not the whole life of the person, but the
temporal part of the person whilst they are a player for the Red Sox. Now
what has a daughter is a father (or mother - but I am going to presume that
there are no women players for the Red Sox). The father is the temporal part
of the person from when the daughter is born until they die (I presume that
you remain a father until your death, even if your daughter dies before you
- you could make other choices). Now it is true that a Red Sox player has a
daughter if the temporal part of the person is identical to (has the same
spatio-temporal extent) as the father of the daughter. That is unlikely, but
if the person who had a temporal part that was a Red Sox Player, and had a
temporal part that was a father and the daughter was born exactly when they
joined the Red Sox and they died whilst still a Red Sox player, then indeed,
a part of the Red Sox would have a daughter. (010)
Regards (011)
Matthew West
Information Junction
Tel: +44 1489 880185
Mobile: +44 750 3385279
Skype: dr.matthew.west
matthew.west@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
http://www.informationjunction.co.uk/
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This email originates from Information Junction Ltd. Registered in England
and Wales No. 6632177.
Registered office: 8 Ennismore Close, Letchworth Garden City, Hertfordshire,
SG6 2SU. (012)
>
> -- doug foxvog
>
> > Regards
> >
> > Matthew West
> > Information Junction
> > Tel: +44 1489 880185
> > Mobile: +44 750 3385279
> > Skype: dr.matthew.west
> > matthew.west@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > http://www.informationjunction.co.uk/
> > https://sites.google.com/site/drmatthewwest/
> > This email originates from Information Junction Ltd. Registered in
> > England and Wales No. 6632177.
> > Registered office: 8 Ennismore Close, Letchworth Garden City,
> > Hertfordshire,
> > SG6 2SU.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
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