Paola,
I would like a clarification of your comment:
> copyright law is part of Intellectual Property Law, and right of
> attribution, as contemplated in public lists forums can be protected
> by the law - whether nobody has bothered enforcing it yet, is another
> matter - I would not mind setting a precendent
(1) Can you provide us with a reference to a legal precedent for enforcing
"right of attribution" to something sent to a public discussion list?
(2) I would very much mind you trying to set a precedent for such a "right",
since it would be large step in killing off any public forum where someone
litigious enough to try to enforce such a "right" was lurking. (01)
I am unaware of any case (but IANAL) where comments contributed to an
informal public email forum such as Ontolog were taken as the basis for
Intellectual Property. This is **not** a publication medium, there are
plenty of outlets in print and online for such formal distribution of
intellectual contributions. As Peter has said repeatedly (and Peter is the
authority here), Ontolog is the on-line equivalent of a casual discussion
among people hanging out at a tavern (but with the conversations recorded).
Do you know of any case where people hanging out at a tavern claimed legal
rights to anything said there? (02)
Please do not try to start any new IP traditions, the world is already far
too vastly overburdened by corporations trying to gain commercial advantage
by claiming rights to things that have been said and done many times before.
Ed Barkmeyer has eloquently reviewed the problems they have caused. We
don't need additional complications. (03)
It is easiest just to assume that anything contributed to Ontolog is in the
public domain, and can be freely reused with or without attribution. Then
we can get on to productive discussion of the issues that cause us to select
these notes from among the hundreds of spam messages we get. If you don't
want your ideas ripped off by others, keep them private until you have
patented them or published them in a formal document with full copyright
notices - and then just refer to those documents, don't put any copyrighted
text in an Ontolog note. If that's not enough, just don't tell us your
ideas at all. (04)
Pat (05)
Patrick Cassidy
MICRA, Inc.
908-561-3416
cell: 908-565-4053
cassidy@xxxxxxxxx (06)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontology-summit-
> bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of paola.dimaio@xxxxxxxxx
> Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 6:03 AM
> To: Ontology Summit 2008
> Subject: Re: [ontology-summit] Ontolog IPR issues
>
> Pat H and Pat C
>
> I) did not receive the message below via the list btw, but via a
> snippet from others comments
> wondering why)
>
> I am glad that there is an interesting twist to this conversation,
> linking back to the old discussion we had about how to 'open
> scientific publishing' and make it more dynamic, faster and less
> stiff, without devoiding it of rigour and integrity (sounds like
> mission impossible, but change and transformation happen with or
> without us) we can anticipate, or follow events
>
> Pat H, I am not confusing academic good conduct - scientific domain is
> FULL of frauds (varying degrees) and scientists claiming for
> attribution for work developed by their juniors, fellows and peers
> This is standard practice. Includes notable nobel prizes.
> There is a full history, and such misappropriation of credit is
> unfortunately just another human tragedy. There is very little tha we
> can do about that
>
> When publishing work however, especially in a public forum, the
> author can kick ass (or at least try to), on IPR ground, in a public
> court of law - (no such thing as an academic tribunal is there? the
> equivalent of the court marshal for the sciences? )
>
>
> (also in reply to Pat C offline note about IPR):
> copyright law is part of Intellectual Property Law, and right of
> attribution, as contemplated in public lists forums can be protected
> by the law - whether nobody has bothered enforcing it yet, is another
> matter - I would not mind setting a precendent
>
> I really find online K exchanges as important complements of
> scientific knowledge exchange in rapidly evolving highly interactive ,
> interdisciplinary domains
>
> I have enough respect for the new media an for the communities who
> pioneer the adoption of new media, to place my faith on them, and help
> disperse the seeds of change,
>
> web based environments have their limitations, surely, but ultimately
> its down to how people use the things - and thanks to web based
> environments the bad habit of 'passing off' can become much more
> visible and addressable publicly
>
> so something is published, when i has been generated and it is
> publicly accesible, and has unique identifiers, and metadata, and a
> url, and it is valid, unique piece of knowledge (in as much as any k
> can be valid and unique) and can be protected, and opened up as
> required by the appropriate licensing agreement
>
> pdm
>
>
>
> >
> > At 11:49 AM -0400 5/6/08, paola.dimaio@xxxxxxxxx wrote:
> > >
> > >I think in this day of web 2.0 science and knowledge being
> exchanged
> > >dynamically, we may have find ways to reference scientific and
> > >academic contributions which come into being from mailing lists and
> > >wikis.
> >
> > Indeed, and this is an area which is in flux and rather
> indeterminate
> > right now.
> >
> > >This is what IPR policies are for, right?
> >
> > Wrong. You are confusing IPR with academic good-conduct rules of
> > acknowledgement and priority of publication. the former are
> primarily
> > legally debated and arise over money; the latter are academically
> > debated and arise over issues of professional reputation and such
> > matters as tenure.
> >
> > >....should we just agree that
> > >what is published should be acknowledged, irrespective of where it
> is
> > >published?
> >
> > That depends on what counts as 'publishing'. For academic purposes,
> > this is usually understood to mean publication in some kind of
> > peer-reviewed forum, which Wikis and blogs and so on are clearly
> not.
> > As you say, the Web 2.0 phenomenon may cause this to (slowly)
> change,
> > but academics are extremely conservative when it comes to how they
> > conduct their own internal affairs, and until such bodies as tenure
> > review committees start changing their attitudes, I do not see the
> > central notion of 'academic publication' changing much.
>
> it has changed already, with the proliferation of jounals, diversity
> of disciplines and varying criteria and thresholds of acceptance
> >
> > Academics are expected to be aware of publications in peer-reviewed
> > journals in their own field, so ignorance of prior publication there
> > is no excuse (and in any case, should be caught by later peer
> > reviewing); but nobody can be expected to read every wiki and blog
> > and newspaper and general-interest journal that comes out.
> >
> sorry, - I consider and value this forum as the most specialised,
> comprehensive and interactive
> source of knowledge generation in this field, albeit a bit casual and
> disorganized
> Pat, can you point me a journal where the
> > I have personally given up on even trying to maintain a publication
> > trail for my own ideas, and in more and more cases have even
> > abandoned any attempt to have them all attributed. My name does not
> > appear anywhere on the ISO Common Logic standard, which I wrote
> > almost entirely (apart from appendices B and C), and I'm cool with
> > that, as I had the option of being the Editor and turned it down.
> And
> > I know in several cases I have re-invented an idea which has then
> > been published and only afterwards has it been noted that it (or
> > something very like it) had in fact been previously known. In some
> > cases, it is virtually impossible to reconstruct an accurate
> > attribution history, as some ideas were kind of half-known to an
> > entire community for a while, and only became sharp and crystallized
> > later, over an extended period of debate and discussion. With the
> > wisdom of hindsight it can then be argued that some particular
> > publication was the 'first' to have the idea, but in fact the idea
> > had not really been gotten clear enough at that time to be fully
> > attributable to any one source. Logic programming is a good example.
> > The invention of the basic idea here has been attributed to R.
> > Kowalski, A. Colmerauer, C. Green (who received an award for it), C.
> > Hewitt and myself, and possibly to others. In fact, what is now
> > called Logic Programming evolved over a period of several years, and
> > all these people, and others, were involved in the discussions and
> > idea development at the time, all with different agendas and
> > emphases. Prolog was invented by Colmerauer; both Kowalski and
> myself
> > came up with the idea embodied in the slogan "algorithm= logic +
> > control"; Hewitt invented Planner, which was structurally similar to
> > Prolog in some ways but did not present itself explicitly as a
> logic;
> > and so on. One could list a dozen influential projects from that
> > period which were similar in some way and might be called 'the
> first'
> > logic programming system; and all these descriptions would have a
> > taint of truth, but all be ultimately wrong.
> >
> > Pat Hayes
> >
> > --
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> -
> > IHMC (850)434 8903 or (650)494 3973 home
> > 40 South Alcaniz St. (850)202 4416 office
> > Pensacola (850)202 4440 fax
> > FL 32502 (850)291 0667 cell
> > http://www.ihmc.us/users/phayes phayesAT-SIGNihmc.us
> > http://www.flickr.com/pathayes/collections
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> --
> Paola Di Maio
> School of IT
> www.mfu.ac.th
> *********************************************
>
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