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Re: [ontolog-forum] ISO merged ontology effort "MCO"

To: "[ontolog-forum]" <ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
From: Peter Yim <peter.yim@xxxxxxxx>
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 07:07:07 -0700
Message-id: <af8f58ac0904110707p53188c95k902a117236eff198@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Ron,    (01)

I assume our posts crossed each others.
Please refer to my attempt to answer you at:
http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontolog-forum/2009-04/msg00105.html    (02)

If that still fails to make sense, then I am out of words. ... and you
and Azamat (and anyone else who think they still want to discuss NeOn)
can judge me and go take that discussion to "Corssfire" (or whatever
it's EU equivalent is called)!    (03)

Regards.  =ppy
--    (04)


On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 6:58 AM, Ron Wheeler
<rwheeler@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> What do they serve in your taverns?
> I am a bit more hardened to life's battles.
> I have been in this forum long enough to see some pretty harsh things
> said about people, their theories and their mental fitness for
> participating in reasonable discussions.
> Everyone got over it.
>
> This discussion is pretty civil.
>
> You can correct me, if I am wrong, but I think that Azemet has laid out
> some of his reasons for his conclusion.
> So far no one has supported the project other than to say that people
> should not raise these issues.
>
> Surely someone must think it has some merit.
> If it does not, can you please provide me with the correct phrasing that
> should be used in this forum for "a waste of taxpayers money"
>
> On my side, I am a big fan of "Yes Minister" and perhaps if we can try
> to guess how Sir Humphrey would present the concept.
> "On the whole, after considering the various ramifications and
> previously unforeseen developments, one might argue, that perhaps a more
> taxpayer friendly outcome could have been achieved if an alternative set
> of resources and strategies would have been employed "
>
> Would that be sufficiently obscure to lessen the offence to the
> project's supporters?
>
> One also has to be a bit tolerant about tone since this forum attracts
> an international audience and not everyone is skilled in the subtle arts
> of English euphemisms.
>
>
> Ron
>
>
> Doug Holmes wrote:
>> Ron,
>>       I'm pretty sure that Peter is referring to emotional phrases that, in
>> common usage, serve primarily to insult individuals, groups of
>> individuals and possibly the ideas they hold.  Saying "you aren't
>> reasoning correctly and here's why.." is very different from saying
>> "you and your friends are unprincipled idiots..." .   In my view, this
>> forum is a lot more focussed on the first and is likely to find the
>> second type of comment distracting and inappropriate. To me, "waste of
>> the taxpayers money",  was a huge inductive leap in the direction of
>> the second category, and Peter is right to head it off.  There are
>> plenty of places on the web to vent about public policy; hopefully the
>> Ontolog forum will avoid that distinction.
>> Doug
>>
>> On Apr 10, 2009, at 11:32 AM, Ron Wheeler wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I am having trouble understanding what you mean by
>>>
>>> "Uninvoked accusations bordering on being libellous to specific
>>> individuals or organizations, don't count as good conversations"
>>>
>>> If you think that someone said something libellous, you should at
>>> least
>>> quote the statement in question.
>>>
>>> The suggestion that a project is a "waste of taxpayers money" is not
>>> libellous. If it were, democratic politics as we know it in the
>>> western
>>> world would come to an end.
>>> There are any number of expenditures by governments from sugar
>>> subsidies
>>> to aircraft carriers that some people will assert are not good uses of
>>> their tax dollars.
>>>
>>> If the suggestion was that the contract was obtained through bribery
>>> or
>>> some illegal means, then you have a point. I did not see that
>>> accusation.
>>>
>>> We know that Azemet is not a fan of NeON. I have never seen anything
>>> in
>>> the forum discussion before, that says that members must agree to
>>> support a specific project regardless of their analysis of its value.
>>> That would certainly not be in keeping with your description  of the
>>> forum as
>>>
>>> "All we are  supposed to be, is a
>>> good conversation (at the "watercooler" or the "tavern at the end of
>>> the working day")."
>>>
>>>
>>> What would be interesting is a factual discussion about why NeON is a
>>> good idea.
>>> I may have missed this but I have not seen anyone challenge Azemet's
>>> points, only his right to say them.
>>> It is time for NeOn's supporters to make their case.
>>>
>>>
>>> I would take issue with the characterization of the discussions in the
>>> forum to be just "tavern talk".
>>> While I confess that I am often unable to understand some of the
>>> topics,
>>> I have a great deal of respect for the effort put in to tackle
>>> difficult
>>> issues (often with difficult people) and provide a well organized and
>>> reasoned approach to the subject at hand.
>>> I am not enough of an expert to make a very credible analysis but I do
>>> get a sense that some of the discussions are leading to better ways of
>>> thinking about ontology and are breaking new ground.
>>>
>>> Ron
>>>
>>>
>>> Peter Yim wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 1:20 AM, Gian Piero Zarri <zarri@xxxxxxx>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> ... wasting the money of the European taxpayers
>>>>> in launching questionable 14.7 million Euro projects
>>>>> like NeON - see Azemat's remarks few days ago. ...
>>>>>
>>>>> You should, may be, buy my book...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> [ppy]  Gian and Azamat, please refer to my post at:
>>>> http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontolog-forum/2009-04/msg00013.html
>>>>
>>>> As I wrote Azamat privately before,
>>>> //
>>>> I don't play politics ... in fact I deplore that and people who do.
>>>> .
>>>> As far as my role at ONTOLOG is concerned, I would only ask: "is this
>>>> move advancing or retarding our mission?" ... and I am calling a stop
>>>> so that we don't throw the long and hard work by so many people in
>>>> the
>>>> community (building out this community environment and a really
>>>> respectable body of knowledge) down the drain, because certain
>>>> individual(s) had a bad day.
>>>> //
>>>>
>>>> I think we all lose, if we start playing politics!
>>>>
>>>> Again Azamat, please do not mistake the [ontolog-forum] for the
>>>> IEEE-SUO list. Ontolog is not a research institution. This is not a
>>>> standards development organization. All we are  supposed to be, is a
>>>> good conversation (at the "watercooler" or the "tavern at the end of
>>>> the working day").  And if that spins off to research projects,
>>>> development projects, standards working groups, by individual members
>>>> who, through this community, discover who has the knowledge, the
>>>> skill
>>>> sets and the right chemistry that they can team up with to do some
>>>> productive work, that would be great!
>>>>
>>>> Uninvoked accusations bordering on being libellous to specific
>>>> individuals or organizations, don't count as good conversations (at
>>>> least not here.) I am sure there are proper channels and venue for
>>>> you
>>>> to voice your concerns. But, sorry, [ontolog-forum] is the wrong
>>>> place.
>>>>
>>>> Again, I cordially request that you take this conversation elsewhere.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks in advance.  =ppy
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 7:21 AM, Azamat <abdoul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> There is a good saying in Russia: the holy place is never empty.
>>>>> Since this
>>>>> respected Forum is unable to come to some joint decision on the
>>>>> "holy issue"
>>>>> of ontology standards, somebody else had to appear.
>>>>>
>>>>> So there surfaced up some astute individuals, the esteemed [Barry
>>>>> Smith
>>>>> (US), Pat Hayes (US)] with their less known companions [Werner
>>>>> Ceusters
>>>>> (US), Frank Farance (US), Nicola Guarino (Italy)] to fill the holy
>>>>> place
>>>>> with their secret stuff. Barring SUMO, I've never heard of any
>>>>> convener of
>>>>> any systematic upper ontology, if only papers and articles. The
>>>>> ontologies
>>>>> proposed are of restricted importance, and hardly will make any
>>>>> useful
>>>>> standards, see the synopsis on STANDARD ONTOLOGY: the Standard
>>>>> Model of
>>>>> Reality, Representation and Reasoning,
>>>>>
>>>>> What is to be done. By the next month the working draft of the MCO
>>>>> must be
>>>>> prepared. The sponsors could be asked to make the wide public
>>>>> known about
>>>>> the results; at least to find out the meanings of "Standardized
>>>>> concept
>>>>> systems", "Merged Core Ontology."
>>>>>
>>>>> By 2009-06, upon studying the draft to send the Forumís regrets or
>>>>> better
>>>>> replacement to the SC32/WG2  as a recommended standards project.
>>>>> That's it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Some general reflections.  There are said many degrees of
>>>>> intelligence. But
>>>>> there are two broad types of intelligence: shrewdness, practical
>>>>> hardheaded
>>>>> intelligence, and intellectual brightness, high smartness. Astute
>>>>> folks are
>>>>> good in business dealings, intellectuals in big science, in
>>>>> searching truths
>>>>> about the world. Presently, the science is increasingly converting
>>>>> into a
>>>>> unique business activity, huge profits, zero risk, no any
>>>>> investments. More
>>>>> and more public funds go there, which you don't need to hardly
>>>>> earn. All
>>>>> what you need is to be sharp as a businessman, like the people from
>>>>> Ontoprise, selling their old software products to the EU several
>>>>> times as
>>>>> NeOn project, ONTORULE project; find yourself how else.
>>>>>
>>>>> To head-off such bad squandering, i suggest for the politicians to
>>>>> accept a
>>>>> special Act on Research Fraud (going as an article in the
>>>>> contracts signed
>>>>> with the government):
>>>>>
>>>>> [in case of false promises and fictitious delivery to consider
>>>>> large fines,
>>>>> the amount spent plus banking interests plus moral damages to the
>>>>> public]. Then, I believe, the quality of research projects will go
>>>>> high
>>>>> while the wild commercialization of science and intellectual minds
>>>>> might be
>>>>> stopped.
>>>>>
>>>>> Azamat Abdoullaev
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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