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Re: [ontology-summit] [BigSystemsandSystemsEngineering]Systemofsystems

To: Ontology Summit 2012 discussion <ontology-summit@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
From: Ali SH <asaegyn+out@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 13:25:10 -0500
Message-id: <CADr70E1bx8v7nB=jzbeOP9VUm7wxVYSOQ=UAZ50cvMst4wUHTA@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Dear David, Mike, Brand and Joseph,

These references [1], [2], [3] contain a multitude of definitions. I reproduce the relevant bits of those papers here:

from [1]
Definition 1:
Systems of systems exist when there is a presence
of a majority of the following five characteristics:
operational and managerial independence,
geographic distribution, emergent behavior, and
evolutionary development [Jamshidi, 2005 [21]].

Definition 2:
Systems of systems are large-scale concurrent and
distributed systems that are comprised of complex
systems [Jamshidi, 2005; [21] Carlock and
Fenton, 2001 [7]].

Definition 3:
Enterprise Systems of Systems Engineering is
focused on coupling traditional systems
engineering activities with enterprise activities of
strategic planning and investment analysis
[Carlock and Fenton, 2001 [7]].

Definition 4:
System of Systems Integration is a method to
pursue development, integration, interoperability,
and optimization of systems to enhance
performance in future battlefield scenarios [Pei,
2000 [37]].

Definition 5:
SoSE involves the integration of systems into
systems of systems that ultimately contribute to
the evolution of the social infrastructure
[Luskasik, 1998 [30]].

Definition 6:
In relation to joint war-fighting, system of
systems is concerned with interoperability and
synergism of Command, Control, Computer s,
Communications, and Information (C41) and
Intelligence, Surveillance, and Reconnaissance
(ISR) Systems [Manthorpe, 1996 [32]].
==========

from [2], i've attached an image of Exhibit 1 which contains 16 distinct definitions of SE, and I would highly recommend looking at Exhibit 2 (a further 6 perspectives on SoS) and Exhibit 3 (6 problem themes) in [2] as well.

I will elaborate further in a separate email.

[1] Jamshidi, Mo (2008). "System of Systems Engineering - New Challenges for the 21' Century." IEEE A&E SYSTEMS MAGAZINE, MAY 2008 
[2] Keating, Charles; Rogers, Ralph; Unal, Resit; Dryer, David; et al. (2003). "System of Systems Engineering" Engineering Management Journal; Sep 2003; 15, 3; ABI/INFORM Global


On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 12:54 PM, David Price <dprice@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
INCOSE says  the 'system' in 'systems engineering' means:

- an integrated set of elements, subsystems, or assemblies that accomplish
a defined objective. These elements include products (hardware, software,
firmware), processes, people, information, techniques, facilities, services,
and other support elements. (INCOSE) An example would be an air
transportation system.

System of system is then:

System‐of‐systems applies to a system‐of‐interest whose system
elements are themselves systems; typically these entail large
scale inter‐disciplinary problems with multiple, heterogeneous,
distributed systems.

and system of interest is:

System‐of‐interest the system whose life cycle is under consideration

ISO/IEC 15288:2008 Systems engineering – System life‐cycle processes says:

- a combination of interacting elements organized to achieve one or more
stated purposes

FWIW I happen to be in the middle of making a SKOS instantiation of the INCOSE SE Handbook terms and definitions for a NIST investigation.

Cheers,
David


On 2/7/2012 5:42 PM, Mike Bennett wrote:
Surely a system is something for which there are things which have part-hood relationships to that thing. Having parts would be what distinguishes a system (at this most general level) from a bunch of stuff.

Just a suggestion.

Mike

On 07/02/2012 17:25, joseph simpson wrote:
The first step in this process is defining a system.

If you can not define a system then you can not define a complex system or a system of systems.

So, I still wonder if we have developed distinction criteria for a system.

(A "system of systems" is by definition a system.)

Have fun,

Joe

On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 9:07 AM, AzamatAbdoullaev <abdoul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
"We've learned that our companies, our cities and our world are complex systems-indeed, systems of systems": http://www.ibm.com/smarterplanet/us/en/overview/ideas/index.html?lnk=ussph2.12 
 
I still wonder if we have developed the distinction criteria for the complex systems and the systems of systems.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 9:56 PM
Subject: Re: [ontology-summit][BigSystemsandSystemsEngineering]Systemofsystems

Yuriy:

Because the name of this track is Big Systems and Systems Engineering this topic fits under the topic of mathematics (a very big system).

However, engineering in general is a bit different and systems engineering is even more different.

Engineering is the act of applying mathematics and scientific principles to the solution of practical problems.

So, math is a tool used by engineers to solve problems.

Then there are systems science and metasystems methodology that set the context for the application of systems engineering.

There is little or no magic involved in these well defined approaches and processes for designing, developing, deploying and operating large-scale systems.

However, as Arthur C. Clarke detailed in his three laws, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

In my mind we are discussing a very advanced technology that integrates large stores of data, information and technology.

It is not magic.

Take care and have fun,

Joe

2012/2/3 Yuriy Milov <qdone@xxxxxxxxxx>
Hi Joe,
 
If a () system of () systems exists then a (very (simple)) system is still a system of (very (very (simple))) system. 
 
It's amaizing to know a very simple system which demonstrates very complex behavior. This is a fantastic gift. We do not deserv it - but we have it! :)
 
We could think that the natural numbers (1,2,3,4,5,6,7.. so on) is simple. Are we sure?
 
Let's choose a natural number  n1 (free, spontaneously, without any reasons - just any of natural numbers) and  then let's choose again any natural number n2  (free, spontaneously, without any reasons - just any of natural numbers).
 
The more freedom of choice we have - the more chances that n2>n1
 
Absolute freedom of choice makes n2>n1 guaranteed
 
The reason of this is that there is no a biggest natural number (that is also an amazing fact, by the way)
 
We (people) are finite (in space and time) pretty simple entities. How can we understand infinity?
 
The answer is - because ae are able to play with a freedom of choice - thanks for the great gift - the natural numbers :) 
 
The  logistic equations and cellular automata are magic wands whaich transform complex system of systems in a simple set 1,2,3 and so on :)
 
Yuri
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 3:29 AM
Subject: Re: [ontology-summit] [BigSystemsandSystemsEngineering]Systemofsystems

The logistic equation is a math model of the behavior of a living system.

A very simple system can demonstrate very complex behavior.

In my view this is another example of general systems theory (GST) where a specific branch of science was generalized into mathematics and applied in many places.

However, this is behavior of a simple system, not a system of systems or an industrial system.

Have fun,

Joe

On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 1:49 PM, Yuriy Milov <qdone@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi Jack,

I think the metod is to follow the cascade of bifurcation which has the
universal mesure (a sort of the delta number which can be got from
experiment/experience)

The magics here is our ability to distinguish the related and unrelated
events -  where the bifurcated branchs (splitted paths) belongs one tree
(one way)

Sorry if it is too vague methafora - I do some urgent job right now

Yuri

 


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