David,
Those definitions seem reasonable. I would add that for a “system of system” (which I consider to be almost a synonym for federated systems) there is no single design authority and likewise no single lifecycle. The specific design and lifecycle is essentially emergent from its component systems. That said, there are certain aspects of the federation that are designed and influence both the design and lifecycle of the federates (or federate proxies). It is the separation of concerns necessary to achieve federation without undue impact on the federates that impacts our ability to achieve large-scale collaborative systems of systems.
-Cory
From: ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of David Price
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 12:54 PM
To: ontology-summit@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ontology-summit] [BigSystemsandSystemsEngineering]Systemofsystems
INCOSE says the 'system' in 'systems engineering' means:
- an integrated set of elements, subsystems, or assemblies that accomplish
a defined objective. These elements include products (hardware, software,
firmware), processes, people, information, techniques, facilities, services,
and other support elements. (INCOSE) An example would be an air
transportation system.
System of system is then:
System‐of‐systems applies to a system‐of‐interest whose system
elements are themselves systems; typically these entail large
scale inter‐disciplinary problems with multiple, heterogeneous,
distributed systems.
and system of interest is:
System‐of‐interest the system whose life cycle is under consideration
ISO/IEC 15288:2008 Systems engineering – System life‐cycle processes says:
- a combination of interacting elements organized to achieve one or more
stated purposes
FWIW I happen to be in the middle of making a SKOS instantiation of the INCOSE SE Handbook terms and definitions for a NIST investigation.
Cheers,
David
On 2/7/2012 5:42 PM, Mike Bennett wrote:
Surely a system is something for which there are things which have part-hood relationships to that thing. Having parts would be what distinguishes a system (at this most general level) from a bunch of stuff.
Just a suggestion.
Mike
On 07/02/2012 17:25, joseph simpson wrote:
The first step in this process is defining a system.
If you can not define a system then you can not define a complex system or a system of systems.
So, I still wonder if we have developed distinction criteria for a system.
(A "system of systems" is by definition a system.)
Have fun,
Joe
On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 9:07 AM, AzamatAbdoullaev <abdoul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I still wonder if we have developed the distinction criteria for the complex systems and the systems of systems.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 9:56 PM
Subject: Re: [ontology-summit][BigSystemsandSystemsEngineering]Systemofsystems
Yuriy:
Because the name of this track is Big Systems and Systems Engineering this topic fits under the topic of mathematics (a very big system).
However, engineering in general is a bit different and systems engineering is even more different.
Engineering is the act of applying mathematics and scientific principles to the solution of practical problems.
So, math is a tool used by engineers to solve problems.
Then there are systems science and metasystems methodology that set the context for the application of systems engineering.
There is little or no magic involved in these well defined approaches and processes for designing, developing, deploying and operating large-scale systems.
However, as Arthur C. Clarke detailed in his three laws, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
In my mind we are discussing a very advanced technology that integrates large stores of data, information and technology.
It is not magic.
Take care and have fun,
Joe
2012/2/3 Yuriy Milov <qdone@xxxxxxxxxx>
If a () system of () systems exists then a (very (simple)) system is still a system of (very (very (simple))) system.
It's amaizing to know a very simple system which demonstrates very complex behavior. This is a fantastic gift. We do not deserv it - but we have it! :)
We could think that the natural numbers (1,2,3,4,5,6,7.. so on) is simple. Are we sure?
Let's choose a natural number n1 (free, spontaneously, without any reasons - just any of natural numbers) and then let's choose again any natural number n2 (free, spontaneously, without any reasons - just any of natural numbers).
The more freedom of choice we have - the more chances that n2>n1
Absolute freedom of choice makes n2>n1 guaranteed
The reason of this is that there is no a biggest natural number (that is also an amazing fact, by the way)
We (people) are finite (in space and time) pretty simple entities. How can we understand infinity?
The answer is - because ae are able to play with a freedom of choice - thanks for the great gift - the natural numbers :)
The logistic equations and cellular automata are magic wands whaich transform complex system of systems in a simple set 1,2,3 and so on :)
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 3:29 AM
Subject: Re: [ontology-summit] [BigSystemsandSystemsEngineering]Systemofsystems
The logistic equation is a math model of the behavior of a living system.
A very simple system can demonstrate very complex behavior.
In my view this is another example of general systems theory (GST) where a specific branch of science was generalized into mathematics and applied in many places.
However, this is behavior of a simple system, not a system of systems or an industrial system.
Have fun,
Joe
On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 1:49 PM, Yuriy Milov <qdone@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi Jack,
I think the metod is to follow the cascade of bifurcation which has the
universal mesure (a sort of the delta number which can be got from
experiment/experience)
The magics here is our ability to distinguish the related and unrelated
events - where the bifurcated branchs (splitted paths) belongs one tree
(one way)
Sorry if it is too vague methafora - I do some urgent job right now
Yuri
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