Well, good luck, David. Wish you well.Be aware that INCOSE's view of system reflects 1970 reductionist thinking regarding state-deterrmined systems. What shall you do about Stafford Beer's POSIWID, the purpose of a system is what it does, regardless of what the designers and users intended?
Does an air transportation system include air terminals, that little red truck that we left behind on take-off but is already there when we land, pilots and copilots each in various phases of their bio-rythms, aircraft manufactuers, airline operators, weather, cost of fuel?
In the supposed system of systems are the components and relationships dedicated to the purpose of the supposed SOS are may one or more also respond to other contexts and is the 1:n participation disjoint or simultaneous?
Is there a distinction between system and configuration? Note that even the INCOSE view uses "that accomplish a defined objective" so what shall you call it when it is not responding to a stimulus?
Anxiously await your interpretation of the INCOSE SE Handbook. I hope you are using the latest one.
Jack Ring
On Feb 7, 2012, at 10:54 AM, David Price wrote:
INCOSE says the 'system' in 'systems engineering' means:
- an integrated set of elements, subsystems, or assemblies that
accomplish
a defined objective. These elements include products (hardware,
software,
firmware), processes, people, information, techniques, facilities,
services,
and other support elements. (INCOSE) An example would be an air
transportation system.
System of system is then:
System‐of‐systems applies to a system‐of‐interest whose system
elements are themselves systems; typically these entail large
scale inter‐disciplinary problems with multiple, heterogeneous,
distributed systems.
and system of interest is:
System‐of‐interest the system whose life cycle is under
consideration
ISO/IEC 15288:2008 Systems engineering – System life‐cycle processes
says:
- a combination of interacting elements organized to achieve one or
more
stated purposes
FWIW I happen to be in the middle of making a SKOS instantiation of
the INCOSE SE Handbook terms and definitions for a NIST
investigation.
Cheers,
David
On 2/7/2012 5:42 PM, Mike Bennett wrote:
Surely a system is something for which there are things which have
part-hood relationships to that thing. Having parts would be what
distinguishes a system (at this most general level) from a bunch
of stuff.
Just a suggestion.
Mike
On 07/02/2012 17:25, joseph simpson wrote:
The first step in this process is defining a system.
If you can not define a system then you can not define a complex
system or a system of systems.
So, I still wonder if we have developed distinction criteria for
a system.
(A "system of systems" is by definition a system.)
Have fun,
Joe
On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 9:07 AM,
AzamatAbdoullaev <abdoul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
I still wonder if we have
developed the distinction criteria for the complex
systems and the systems of systems.
----- Original Message
-----
Sent: Friday,
February 03, 2012 9:56 PM
Subject: Re:
[ontology-summit][BigSystemsandSystemsEngineering]Systemofsystems
Yuriy:
Because the name of this track is Big Systems and
Systems Engineering this topic fits under the topic
of mathematics (a very big system).
However, engineering in general is a bit different
and systems engineering is even more different.
Engineering is the act of applying mathematics and
scientific principles to the solution of practical
problems.
So, math is a tool used by engineers to solve
problems.
Then there are systems science and metasystems
methodology that set the context for the application
of systems engineering.
There is little or no magic involved in these well
defined approaches and processes for designing,
developing, deploying and operating large-scale
systems.
However, as Arthur C. Clarke detailed in his three
laws, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is
indistinguishable from magic."
In my mind we are discussing a very advanced
technology that integrates large stores of data,
information and technology.
It is not magic.
Take care and have fun,
Joe
2012/2/3 Yuriy Milov <qdone@xxxxxxxxxx>
Hi Joe,
If a () system of ()
systems exists then a (very (simple))
system is still a system of (very (very
(simple))) system.
It's amaizing to
know a very simple system which
demonstrates very complex behavior. This is a fantastic gift. We
do not deserv it - but we have it! :)
We could think that
the natural numbers (1,2,3,4,5,6,7.. so
on) is simple. Are we sure?
Let's choose a natural
number n1 (free, spontaneously, without
any reasons - just any of natural
numbers) and then let's choose again any natural
number n2 (free, spontaneously, without
any reasons - just any of natural
numbers).
The more freedom of
choice we have - the more chances that
n2>n1
Absolute freedom of
choice makes n2>n1 guaranteed
The reason of this is
that there is no a biggest natural number
(that is also an amazing fact, by the way)
We (people) are finite
(in space and time) pretty simple
entities. How can we understand infinity?
The answer is -
because ae are able to play with a freedom
of choice - thanks for the great gift -
the natural numbers :)
The logistic equations
and cellular automata are magic wands
whaich transform complex system of
systems in a simple set 1,2,3 and so on
:)
Yuri
-----
Original Message -----
Sent:
Friday, February 03, 2012 3:29 AM
Subject:
Re: [ontology-summit]
[BigSystemsandSystemsEngineering]Systemofsystems
The logistic equation is a math model of
the behavior of a living system.
A very simple system can demonstrate very
complex behavior.
In my view this is another example of
general systems theory (GST) where a
specific branch of science was generalized
into mathematics and applied in many
places.
However, this is behavior of a simple
system, not a system of systems or an
industrial system.
Have fun,
Joe
On Thu, Feb 2,
2012 at 1:49 PM, Yuriy Milov <qdone@xxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
Hi Jack,
I think the metod is to follow the
cascade of bifurcation which has the
universal mesure (a sort of the delta
number which can be got from
experiment/experience)
The magics here is our ability to
distinguish the related and unrelated
events - where the bifurcated branchs
(splitted paths) belongs one tree
(one way)
Sorry if it is too vague methafora - I
do some urgent job right now
Yuri
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