| TKU for the prompt response and for clarifying your current scope of interest. I am currently engaged in a project to make humans sufficiently interoperable when attempting to exchange knowledge regarding a) system, b) system praxis, c) system engineering, d) fault detection and correction and e) model. Any clues you have for helping those who say To-mo-to converse with those who say To-maa-to will be greatly appreciated. Banning "is" helps. Also involves a way to hang -nyms on terms and to mesh networks of terms in context with other networks of terms in context. Gird thy loins. Ralph Hodgson has offered to ontologize it if and when I get something that is stable enough to merit his attention. Jack On Feb 7, 2012, at 12:05 PM, David Price wrote:
Hi Jack,
The investigation for NIST has one aspect looking at how SKOS might
be used to link strong ontologies and other related artifacts to
technical dictionaries. The point of the investigation is about the
technology, so the INCOSE handbook could be replaced by another
dictionary. I don't propose to do anything about POSIWID or the
decades of other papers, approaches and books through which we'll
have to wade. My purpose is to show how the results of those efforts
can be shared, and related, using a 'Semantic Web Lite',
concept-based technology rather than as PDFs, HTML or wiki pages.
So, good questions but out-of-scope for my little experiment.
The handbook version I have is INCOSE‐TP‐2003‐002‐03.2.1, January
2011.
Cheers,
David
On 2/7/2012 6:31 PM, Jack Ring wrote:
Well, good luck, David. Wish you well.
Be aware that INCOSE's view of system reflects 1970
reductionist thinking regarding state-deterrmined systems.
What shall you do about Stafford Beer's POSIWID, the purpose
of a system is what it does, regardless of what the designers
and users intended?
Does an air transportation system include air terminals,
that little red truck that we left behind on take-off but is
already there when we land, pilots and copilots each in
various phases of their bio-rythms, aircraft manufactuers,
airline operators, weather, cost of fuel?
In the supposed system of systems are the components and
relationships dedicated to the purpose of the supposed SOS are
may one or more also respond to other contexts and is the 1:n
participation disjoint or simultaneous?
Is there a distinction between system and configuration?
Note that even the INCOSE view uses "that accomplish a defined
objective" so what shall you call it when it is not responding
to a stimulus?
Anxiously await your interpretation of the INCOSE SE
Handbook. I hope you are using the latest one.
Jack Ring
On Feb 7, 2012, at 10:54 AM, David Price wrote:
INCOSE says the
'system' in 'systems engineering' means:
- an integrated set of elements, subsystems, or
assemblies that accomplish
a defined objective. These elements include products
(hardware, software,
firmware), processes, people, information, techniques,
facilities, services,
and other support elements. (INCOSE) An example would be
an air
transportation system.
System of system is then:
System‐of‐systems applies to a system‐of‐interest whose
system
elements are themselves systems; typically these entail
large
scale inter‐disciplinary problems with multiple,
heterogeneous,
distributed systems.
and system of interest is:
System‐of‐interest the system whose life cycle is under
consideration
ISO/IEC 15288:2008 Systems engineering – System
life‐cycle processes says:
- a combination of interacting elements organized to
achieve one or more
stated purposes
FWIW I happen to be in the middle of making a SKOS
instantiation of the INCOSE SE Handbook terms and
definitions for a NIST investigation.
Cheers,
David
On 2/7/2012 5:42 PM, Mike Bennett wrote:
Surely a system is something for which there are
things which have part-hood relationships to that
thing. Having parts would be what distinguishes a
system (at this most general level) from a bunch of
stuff.
Just a suggestion.
Mike
On 07/02/2012 17:25, joseph simpson wrote:
The first step in this process is
defining a system.
If you can not define a system then you can not
define a complex system or a system of systems.
So, I still wonder if we have developed distinction
criteria for a system.
(A "system of systems" is by definition a system.)
Have fun,
Joe
On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 9:07
AM, AzamatAbdoullaev <abdoul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
I still wonder
if we have developed the distinction
criteria for the complex systems and the
systems of systems.
-----
Original Message -----
Sent:
Friday, February 03, 2012 9:56 PM
Subject:
Re:
[ontology-summit][BigSystemsandSystemsEngineering]Systemofsystems
Yuriy:
Because the name of this track is Big
Systems and Systems Engineering this
topic fits under the topic of
mathematics (a very big system).
However, engineering in general is a bit
different and systems engineering is
even more different.
Engineering is the act of applying
mathematics and scientific principles to
the solution of practical problems.
So, math is a tool used by engineers to
solve problems.
Then there are systems science and
metasystems methodology that set the
context for the application of systems
engineering.
There is little or no magic involved in
these well defined approaches and
processes for designing, developing,
deploying and operating large-scale
systems.
However, as Arthur C. Clarke detailed in
his three laws, "Any sufficiently
advanced technology is indistinguishable
from magic."
In my mind we are discussing a very
advanced technology that integrates
large stores of data, information and
technology.
It is not magic.
Take care and have fun,
Joe
2012/2/3 Yuriy
Milov <qdone@xxxxxxxxxx>
Hi Joe,
If a ()
system of () systems
exists then a (very (simple))
system is still a system of
(very (very (simple)))
system.
It's amaizing to
know a very simple
system which demonstrates
very complex behavior. This is a
fantastic gift. We do not
deserv it - but we have it! :)
We
could think that the natural
numbers (1,2,3,4,5,6,7.. so
on) is simple. Are we sure?
Let's
choose a natural number n1
(free, spontaneously, without
any reasons - just any of
natural numbers) and then
let's choose again any
natural number n2 (free,
spontaneously, without any
reasons - just any of natural
numbers).
The more
freedom of choice we have -
the more chances that n2>n1
Absolute
freedom of choice makes
n2>n1 guaranteed
The reason
of this is that there is no a
biggest natural number (that
is also an amazing fact, by
the way)
We
(people) are finite (in space
and time) pretty simple
entities. How can we
understand infinity?
The answer
is - because ae are able to
play with a freedom of choice
- thanks for the great gift -
the natural numbers :)
The logistic equations
and cellular automata are
magic wands whaich transform
complex system of systems in
a simple set 1,2,3 and so on
:)
Yuri
-----
Original Message -----
Sent:
Friday, February 03, 2012
3:29 AM
Subject:
Re: [ontology-summit]
[BigSystemsandSystemsEngineering]Systemofsystems
The logistic equation is a
math model of the behavior of
a living system.
A very simple system can
demonstrate very complex
behavior.
In my view this is another
example of general systems
theory (GST) where a specific
branch of science was
generalized into mathematics
and applied in many places.
However, this is behavior of a
simple system, not a system of
systems or an industrial
system.
Have fun,
Joe
On
Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 1:49 PM,
Yuriy Milov <qdone@xxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
Hi
Jack,
I think the metod is to
follow the cascade of
bifurcation which has the
universal mesure (a sort
of the delta number which
can be got from
experiment/experience)
The magics here is our
ability to distinguish the
related and unrelated
events - where the
bifurcated branchs
(splitted paths) belongs
one tree
(one way)
Sorry if it is too vague
methafora - I do some
urgent job right now
Yuri
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