Dear Doug, (01)
I think I was more or less with you until here. (02)
DF> while a copy of a copy of a
> copy of a lifted fingerprint is the same thing as the lifted fingerprint. (03)
MW: I would think a copy of a copy of a fingerprint was a copy of a copy of
a fingerprint, and not the same thing. (04)
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontolog-forum-
> bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of doug foxvog
> Sent: 12 July 2012 21:33
> To: [ontolog-forum]
> Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] The class of the planet Venus
> On Wed, July 11, 2012 20:38, Chris Menzel wrote:
> > On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 7:29 PM, joel luis carbonera
> <joelcarbonera@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> The various issues of identity usually ignore that identity is something
> assigned to things by a sentient being. Identity is assigned to some
> collection of things and the assigner maintains the identity as a 4D worm
> having it assigned to different collections of things at different times.
> [How's this for a way to stir up trouble!]
> We take collections of experiences and group them into things depending
> perceived patterns. Groups of patterns that remain generally stable over
> are more likely to be identified as things. Once we find patterns of
> that recur, we identify them as types of things. Once we've identified a
> of thing by a pattern of patterns, whenever some group of patterns matches
> that pattern we define it as an instance of that type.
> By defining something as an instance of a type, we indicate some types of
> aspects of the thing we consider important and some which we do not for
> thing's identity.
> For most things, a change of location is immaterial to assigned identity.
> The loss or gain of atoms is also ignored. The loss or gain of chunks of
> matter of over 1% of the size of a physical thing may or may not result in
> change of identity depending upon how crucial that affected mass is in the
> assigned identity criteria. A main criteria for identity is whether
> properties that are true of unaltered thing are also true of the altered
> thing. Which properties those are depend upon the way the thing is
> and for what purposes.
> One person could identify a certain mass as a blob of Soft Clay, while
> could identify it as a Piece of Art. If person A rolls it into a ball,
> blob continues to exist merely experiencing a change of shape, while the
> of art ceases to exist. If person B fires the blob before Person A acts,
> piece of art is preserved for the future, while the blob of soft clay
> to exist.
> Aristotle's essential vs. accidental changes are descriptions of patterns
> are used or not used in defining a pattern that is used to define a thing.
> Whether something is the same "thing" as something at another time depends
> upon the purpose of the question being asked. In most cases, cleaning
> something does not change its identity, but to a fingerprint expert,
> may cause a piece of evidence to cease to exist, while a copy of a copy of
> copy of a lifted fingerprint is the same thing as the lifted fingerprint.
> >> This case, seems to be related to the diachronic identity problem.
> >> http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/identity-time/
> > Yes, that is the temporal manifestation of (one aspect of) the problem.
> > The
> > modal analog is sometimes called the problem of transworld identity:
> > http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/identity-transworld/
> > -chris
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