On Jul 13, 2012, at 11:15 AM, doug foxvog wrote: (01)
> On Fri, July 13, 2012 03:55, Matthew West wrote:
>> Dear Doug,
>
>> I think I was more or less with you until here.
>
>> DF> while a copy of a copy of a
>>> copy of a lifted fingerprint is the same thing as the lifted
>>> fingerprint.
>
>> MW: I would think a copy of a copy of a fingerprint was a copy of a copy
>> of a fingerprint, and not the same thing.
>
> Yet the expert when pointing to features of a projection of a photo
> in court says, "This is the fingerprint that was left on the glass.". (02)
Just as someone might hold up a photograph and say "This is the man who stole
the hamburger.". We often, when dealing with symbols, images and signs, refer
to them by what they refer to rather than to what they are. (03)
Pat (04)
>
> -- doug f
>
>> Regards
>>
>> Matthew West
>> Information Junction
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>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontolog-forum-
>>> bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of doug foxvog
>>> Sent: 12 July 2012 21:33
>>> To: [ontolog-forum]
>>> Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] The class of the planet Venus
>>>
>>> On Wed, July 11, 2012 20:38, Chris Menzel wrote:
>>>> On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 7:29 PM, joel luis carbonera
>>> <joelcarbonera@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>
>>> The various issues of identity usually ignore that identity is something
>>> assigned to things by a sentient being. Identity is assigned to some
>>> collection of things and the assigner maintains the identity as a 4D
>>> worm
>> by
>>> having it assigned to different collections of things at different
>>> times.
>>>
>>> [How's this for a way to stir up trouble!]
>>>
>>> We take collections of experiences and group them into things depending
>> upon
>>> perceived patterns. Groups of patterns that remain generally stable
>>> over
>> time
>>> are more likely to be identified as things. Once we find patterns of
>> patterns
>>> that recur, we identify them as types of things. Once we've identified
>>> a
>> type
>>> of thing by a pattern of patterns, whenever some group of patterns
>>> matches
>>> that pattern we define it as an instance of that type.
>>>
>>> By defining something as an instance of a type, we indicate some types
>>> of
>>> aspects of the thing we consider important and some which we do not for
>> the
>>> thing's identity.
>>>
>>> For most things, a change of location is immaterial to assigned
>>> identity.
>>> The loss or gain of atoms is also ignored. The loss or gain of chunks
>>> of
>>> matter of over 1% of the size of a physical thing may or may not result
>>> in
>> a
>>> change of identity depending upon how crucial that affected mass is in
>>> the
>>> assigned identity criteria. A main criteria for identity is whether
>> various
>>> properties that are true of unaltered thing are also true of the altered
>>> thing. Which properties those are depend upon the way the thing is
>> classified
>>> and for what purposes.
>>>
>>> One person could identify a certain mass as a blob of Soft Clay, while
>> another
>>> could identify it as a Piece of Art. If person A rolls it into a ball,
>> the
>>> blob continues to exist merely experiencing a change of shape, while the
>> piece
>>> of art ceases to exist. If person B fires the blob before Person A
>>> acts,
>> the
>>> piece of art is preserved for the future, while the blob of soft clay
>> ceases
>>> to exist.
>>>
>>> Aristotle's essential vs. accidental changes are descriptions of
>>> patterns
>> that
>>> are used or not used in defining a pattern that is used to define a
>>> thing.
>>>
>>> Whether something is the same "thing" as something at another time
>>> depends
>>> upon the purpose of the question being asked. In most cases, cleaning
>>> something does not change its identity, but to a fingerprint expert,
>> cleaning
>>> may cause a piece of evidence to cease to exist, while a copy of a copy
>>> of
>> a
>>> copy of a lifted fingerprint is the same thing as the lifted
>>> fingerprint.
>>>
>>>>> This case, seems to be related to the diachronic identity problem.
>>>>> http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/identity-time/
>>>
>>>> Yes, that is the temporal manifestation of (one aspect of) the
>>> problem.
>>>> The
>>>> modal analog is sometimes called the problem of transworld identity:
>>>> http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/identity-transworld/
>>>
>>>> -chris
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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