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Re: [ontolog-forum] Software Engineering — NOT!

To: "[ontolog-forum] " <ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
From: "Zhuk, Yefim" <Yefim.Zhuk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2010 21:34:31 -0500
Message-id: <DEF4602BC4132240B68479642E1DD27F98909DC205@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>

I’d think of knowledge engineering as a core science for the new profession or better say multiple professions.

Multiple professions, because knowledge is empty without a domain. (There is an existing Cyc’s generic knowledge, but with the closer look it’s still a well integrated collection of multiple micro-theories or specific knowledge domains)


For example, teaching IT related classes at UoP, I added a subject of “Integrated Software and Knowledge Engineering”. This is probably what we need to fulfill SOA promises and in the post SOA era.

I’d think of “Integrated Bio and Knowledge Engineering”, and etc.


There are existing classes in Knowledge Engineering but they luck connections to other fields and mostly focus on NLP and library related applications.


The most natural way might be to inject knowledge engineering classes in the current existing programs. Similar as we added Software Architecture and then SOA classes to Software Engineering field.

Another possibility is expanding Knowledge Engineering into a degree program (I did not see this so far) and adding to the program multiple flavors.


On average the schools in the US are 4-6 years behind the industry demands (still better than in many other countries) and changing school curriculum is a long term challenge.  With the semantic case, we are coming into the good timing zone, so my hopes are high.


Yefim (Jeff)


From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Pavithra
Sent: Monday, December 27, 2010 7:01 PM
To: [ontolog-forum]
Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Software Engineering — NOT!


In addition I believe they also have to have AI and Computer Networks as a required courses to obtain  BS in computer science

( Here is a list from one  of the universities here . this may vary according to the universities..
.Undergraduate degree work in computer science provides students with essential background for studying the design and implementation of computer systems software, computer architecture, and computer software applications for science and business. The program emphasizes both computer systems fundamentals and computer software applications. Required areas of study include data structures, analysis of algorithms, assembly language, computer architecture and language translation, software design and development, artificial intelligence and networking. Evolving software technologies are a major concern. The BS in Computer Science program also requires 23 credits in mathematics and statistics, including calculus, discrete mathematics, matrix algebra, applied probability theory, and numerical analysis.  )
--- On Mon, 12/27/10, Pavithra <pavithra_kenjige@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

From: Pavithra <pavithra_kenjige@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Software Engineering — NOT!
To: "[ontolog-forum]" <ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Monday, December 27, 2010, 6:21 PM

In computers, there is Computer Engineering,  Network Engineering,  Software /Systems Engineering.   Software Systems Engineering certification covered most of the conceptual topics that are discussed in this forum.

In product development ( both hardware, and software) there is life cycle management of products and services..  that is considered engineering.  Many require specialized industry certification. 

We have discussed about the topics for Ontology certification  here too.

In British School/ common wealth school system - a science degree would be 12+3 years and engineering is 12+4 years ..    So in common wealth school system, if you call a science major person an engineer...  an person with engineering degree would snif..

However in US any collage degree both science and engineering would be 12+4 years and have enough flexibility to include engineering and science and humanity and other area of interest courses.. In US school system, one needs to complete required core courses + electives to get a degree in a particular field.  Required core courses are mandatory ..  So if you have computer science degree and have software engineering job, you are not sniffed at..  Because even to get a undergraduate computer science degree, one has to study assembler,  computer system architecture, operating system and even electronics & algorithms! 

So I am not sure whether it makes a difference if you call a person with an undergraduate degree in CS  as computer science person or engineer depending what his profession is..

--- On Mon, 12/27/10, David Eddy <deddy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

From: David Eddy <deddy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [ontolog-forum] Software Engineering — NOT!
To: "[ontolog-forum] " <ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Monday, December 27, 2010, 5:46 PM

Mike -

On 2010-12-27, at 4:42 PM, Mike Bennett wrote:

> The problem is less acute in non English speaking countries, and
> in English speaking countries outside of the UK and the Americas.
> In most countries, using the term "Engineer" is considered to be
> as precise as using the term "Doctor", but somehow in British
> usage it has become reduced to a generic term along the lines of
> "workman". This hasn't helped anyone in software "engineering" to
> find themselves part of the culture and practice of engineering,
> sadly.

A realistic assessment.

Folks call them selves "enterprise architect" when they've built a 
website.  Huh?

Last week I was at MIT (in the same room where the Data Quality 
Financial Services track met).  Topic was "complex systems."

Eventually someone brought up "software engineering"... which I 
jumped on.  To my delight challenging "software engineering" as 
engineering got a big laugh.

How can a profession be considered "engineering" when after 60+ years 
we don't even have a universally recognized, accepted, and practiced 
means of measurement?  At least in the UK, screw thread standards are 
down to a manageable 5... after what?  300 years?

By a show of hands, who here—with the exception of JFS—(1) knows what 
Function Points are, (2) has used them, and (3) is in an organization 
that relies on them?  Don't everyone raise their hands at once.

I'm happy to argue that since we're no where close to measuring the 
software process, putting forth ontology as an engineering discipline 
is a tad premature.

David Eddy


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