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[ontolog-forum] do not trust quantifiers

To: ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: FERENC KOVACS <f.kovacs@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 14:37:11 +0000 (GMT)
Message-id: <507975.14540.qm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>


I was only referring to physical objects.  Others won't have mass.  I
suppose i should have said mass/energy since photons do not have mass,
yet could be included in the concept "physical object".  Narrower
subclasses of "physical object" would require mass.
fair enough

> What is a situation?

A situation would be either an event or a static arrangement/state of
some object(s) over some time period.  Examples of static situations
would be Barak Obama sitting on the desk in the Oval Office and a
specific bank account being overdrawn.

FK what is an event then?
And what is static arrangement/state of some object(s) over some time period?
Your example to me is NOT a situation, but two proposals
> Are all physical objects physical participants?

Of physical situations, yes.  But a physical person is not a physical
participant in an ownership situation, nor is the object owned, even
if it is a physical object.

So we have ownership situation? What is that?

DF> [Non-physical situations have only non-physical participants, such as
DF> the static
DF> situation of a sick leave account having 15 days in it or the event of a
DF> law expiring.]
What is a non-physical participant?
> Is a sick leave account and 15 days in it one object?

The account is a single object.  The amount in an account is a property
of an account that varies with time. 
FK: There is no such thing as a single object. Every object is defined in terms of a cluster of properties. There is no such a thing as a property (without an object), etc.
The situation of a specific account having a specific amount in it during a specific period is an object, with one relation relating the situation to the account another relating it to the amount in the account, and another relating
it to the time period over which the situation holds.
What are the boundaries of the situation? Is the situation then an object with a relation betwen the situation and the account (a single object?- see above) , another between the situation and the amount (a property - see above), and another between the situation and a time period (quantity - what is this then?)

The 15 days is a quantity -- which wouldn't fit the definition of "object"
in many ontologies.  I'm sure you could create some ontology, O1, in which
O1:Object is a superclass of quantity.

> Is it a generic object?

The account is not the same as the quantity in the account, thus they are
not the same object of any kind.  If you define a set as an object, then
the set comprising the account and a given quantity would by definition
be an object in an ontology with that definition.
FK If you define a set as an object then an account would be a variable, just as quantity, no? 

> Is the event of law expiring complete or specific without a date?

It is not completely defined without a date.
Thus an event does not seem to be a complete piece of semantic primitive.

DF> An illness is a physical event. A "form of illness" is a subclass of
DF> Illness, which is a subclass of Physical Event.

> It may be so subject to the terminology (definitions) of your ontology.
> It appears that illness is a physical event as well as a class with
> sublasses (forms of illness).

These are two different things.  Language is sloppy in referring to
both cancer and a case of a specific person having cancer as "a disease".

"Illness" is a subclass of physical event.  "An illness", meaning "an
instance of the class Illness" is an individual instance of physical
event.  "Form of illness" (your term) is a subclass of "type of illness"
and is a metaclass since its instances are themselves classes.
We are in a maze again. The philoophical issue is whether there is such a thing as an illness. Many doctors say that they treat people, not illnessses. But suppose you are able to make a distinction for some purpose. Still, you cannot call or classify an illness as an event, it is becoming giberish with too much verbage and labels. (do not take it personal, please)

> What are the members of the class physical events?

An event which causes change in the physical world (involving particles
which physicists recognize) would be a physical event. 
FK Is it countabe then? What are the boundaries of an event?
Events such as a person receiving or loosing rights at a certain clock time would not
be "physical" events.
Well, I doubt that.

> Boundaries? Extension? Intension?
> What is an event? By definition, in verbal terms that make sense and may
> be visualized as it suggests to be "real", taking place in spacetime.

Non-physical events would take place in time.  It might not make much
sense to locate many of them to a narrower space than the sphere of human
interaction, but a law coming into effect (or expiring) would be located
in the territory of jurisdiction of the appropriate geo-political entity.
The events in the sphere of human interaction do not take place in spacetime?

Last time i checked, Cyc had a rather precise definition for Event and
Situation.  I'm currently traveling and don't have those definitions
at my fingertips.
No worries, Thanks
I am sending a separate post with my comments

-- doug

> Thanks, Ferenc

DF> Both the organism that is sick and the illness are spatio-temporal
DF> things, and thus have a
DF> location, starting time, and ending times (as well as other properties
DF> of spatio-temporal things). The organism is also a physical object, and
DF> thus has mass (as well as other properties of physical objects). The
DF> illness is also an event and thus has a doer and an object acted on (as
DF> well as other properties of events).

doug foxvog    doug@xxxxxxxxxx   http://ProgressiveAustin.org

"I speak as an American to the leaders of my own nation. The great
initiative in this war is ours. The initiative to stop it must be ours."
    - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

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