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Re: [ontolog-forum] do not trust quantifiers

To: <doug@xxxxxxxxxx>, "'[ontolog-forum] '" <ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
From: "Rich Cooper" <rich@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 10:30:13 -0700
Message-id: <20100923173017.F2A2D138DAF@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>

Following this thread, I have put together a partial lattice (just from the top down, but not as far as NoT) which may help visualize the structure that has been discussed so far:

The items in red are properties, while the items in black are classes in a subclass (isa) structure.  It seems to me that “situation” appears twice in the diagram, as I have drawn it above.  


Doug, this can’t be what you mean.  How would you model a situation wherein “Object” is the most abstract (JFS’s “T”)?






Rich Cooper


Rich AT EnglishLogicKernel DOT com

9 4 9 \ 5 2 5 - 5 7 1 2


-----Original Message-----
From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of doug foxvog
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 4:49 AM
To: [ontolog-forum]
Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] do not trust quantifiers



On Tue, September 21, 2010 20:20, FERENC KOVACS said:


> Questions to Doug


DF> Physical objects have spatio-temporal properties as well as mass. 

DF> Mental constructs have temporal properties, but neither spatial nor

DF> mass.


> Why should have all objects mass?


I was only referring to physical objects.  Others won't have mass.  I

suppose i should have said mass/energy since photons do not have mass,

yet could be included in the concept "physical object".  Narrower

subclasses of "physical object" would require mass.


> Situations have temporal properties and physical situations have physical

> objects as physical participants. 


> What is a situation?


A situation would be either an event or a static arrangement/state of

some object(s) over some time period.  Examples of static situations

would be Barak Obama sitting on the desk in the Oval Office and a

specific bank account being overdrawn.


> Are all physical objects physical participants?


Of physical situations, yes.  But a physical person is not a physical

participant in an ownership situation, nor is the object owned, even

if it is a physical object.


DF> [Non-physical situations have only non-physical participants, such as

DF> the static

DF> situation of a sick leave account having 15 days in it or the event of a

DF> law expiring.]

> Is a sick leave account and 15 days in it one object?




The account is a single object.  The amount in an account is a property

of an account that varies with time.  The situation of a specific

account having a specific amount in it during a specific period is

an object, with one relation relating the situation to the account,

another relating it to the amount in the account, and another relating

it to the time period over which the situation holds.


The 15 days is a quantity -- which wouldn't fit the definition of "object"

in many ontologies.  I'm sure you could create some ontology, O1, in which

O1:Object is a superclass of quantity.


> Is it a generic object?


The account is not the same as the quantity in the account, thus they are

not the same object of any kind.  If you define a set as an object, then

the set comprising the account and a given quantity would by definition

be an object in an ontology with that definition.


> Is the event of law expiring complete or specific without a date?


It is not completely defined without a date.


DF> An illness is a physical event.  A "form of illness" is a subclass of

DF> Illness, which is a subclass of Physical Event. 


> It may be so subject to the terminology (definitions) of your ontology.

> It appears that illness is a physical event as well as a class with

> sublasses (forms of illness).


These are two different things.  Language is sloppy in referring to

both cancer and a case of a specific person having cancer as "a disease".


"Illness" is a subclass of physical event.  "An illness", meaning "an

instance of the class Illness" is an individual instance of physical

event.  "Form of illness" (your term) is a subclass of "type of illness"

and is a metaclass since its instances are themselves classes.


> What are the members of the class physical events?


An event which causes change in the physical world (involving particles

which physicists recognize) would be a physical event.  Events such as

a person receiving or loosing rights at a certain clock time would not

be "physical" events.


> Boundaries? Extension? Intension?

> What is an event? By definition, in verbal terms that make sense and may

> be visualized as it suggests to be "real"?, taking place in spacetime.


Non-physical events would take place in time.  It might not make much

sense to locate many of them to a narrower space than the sphere of human

interaction, but a law coming into effect (or expiring) would be located

in the territory of jurisdiction of the appropriate geo-political entity.


Last time i checked, Cyc had a rather precise definition for Event and

Situation.  I'm currently traveling and don't have those definitions

at my fingertips.


-- doug


> Thanks, Ferenc


DF> Both the organism that is sick and the illness are spatio-temporal

DF> things, and thus have a

DF> location, starting time, and ending times (as well as other properties

DF> of spatio-temporal things).  The organism is also a physical object, and

DF> thus has mass (as well as other properties of physical objects).  The

DF> illness is also an event and thus has a doer and an object acted on (as

DF> well as other properties of events).



doug foxvog    doug@xxxxxxxxxx   http://ProgressiveAustin.org


"I speak as an American to the leaders of my own nation. The great

initiative in this war is ours. The initiative to stop it must be ours."

    - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.





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