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## Re: [ontolog-forum] language vs logic - ambiguity and startingwithdefini

 To: "[ontolog-forum]" Pavithra Tue, 21 Sep 2010 05:37:30 -0700 (PDT) <876339.18773.qm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Dr. Sowa

My question is:

-  In  real life, an object is perceived by its existence.   Some things are obvious.   If you have an apple in a bowl,  one can see the bowl and the apple and color of the apple,  why would you need math to prove the color of the apple?

-  Then there is more complex things like air.    One does not see air, how would you model that?  But one knows that it exists and there is co dependency between life and oxygen in air..

My point is, to model an abstract version of things that exists in reality and things that are made up ( simulated), even mathematicians have to understand the existence of the things and their properties and behavior.

Once the environment, and things in the environment is perceived well, systems engineering world,has many tools to model without writing axioms or using mathematical notations.  However, it is used to prove or verify correctness of existence/ instantiation, uniqueness and relationship

One need to use mathematical theory to create a new language or tools.. ( which is meta.. )

In this group sometimes we write about analysis ( description and describing the world in simple English),  Design ( modeling )  and programming languages, and creating programming languages  and meta environment in the same tone.
That can be confusing..

Pavithra

--- On Tue, 9/21/10, Alex Shkotin <alex.shkotin@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

From: Alex Shkotin <alex.shkotin@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] language vs logic - ambiguity and startingwithdefinitions
To: "[ontolog-forum]" <ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Tuesday, September 21, 2010, 1:05 AM

Hi Pavithra,

it seems we should consider separately:
- First order language - simple context free language (actually - family of languages, if set of primary symbols is not fixed). And we may speak about second order language (SOL) weak SOL...
- First order logic - when, using language, we introduce axioms and derivation rules. As I know there are at least two generally known logics: classical and intuitionistic.

A point is that First order language (with numbers;-) is sufficient to express our knowledge about real world, not only math world.

Alex

2010/9/21 Pavithra

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 Current Thread Re: [ontolog-forum] language vs logic - ambiguity and startingwithdefinitions, FERENC KOVACS Re: [ontolog-forum] language vs logic - ambiguity and startingwithdefinitions, Alex Shkotin Re: [ontolog-forum] language vs logic - ambiguity and startingwithdefinitions, doug foxvog Re: [ontolog-forum] language vs logic - ambiguity and startingwithdefinitions, David Eddy Re: [ontolog-forum] language vs logic - ambiguity and startingwithdefinitions, Rich Cooper Message not available Re: [ontolog-forum] language vs logic - ambiguity and startingwithdefinitions, Pavithra Re: [ontolog-forum] language vs logic - ambiguity and startingwithdefinitions, Alex Shkotin Re: [ontolog-forum] language vs logic - ambiguity and startingwithdefinitions, Pavithra <= Re: [ontolog-forum] language vs logic - ambiguity and startingwithdefinitions, John F. Sowa Re: [ontolog-forum] language vs logic - ambiguity and startingwithdefinitions, Pavithra Re: [ontolog-forum] language vs logic - ambiguity and startingwithdefinitions, doug foxvog Re: [ontolog-forum] language vs logic - ambiguity and startingwithdefinitions, Pavithra Re: [ontolog-forum] language vs logic - ambiguity and startingwithdefinitions, Rick Murphy Re: [ontolog-forum] language vs logic - ambiguity and startingwithdefinitions, John F. Sowa Re: [ontolog-forum] language vs logic - ambiguity and startingwithdefinitions, Pavithra Re: [ontolog-forum] language vs logic - ambiguity andstartingwithdefinitions, Rich Cooper Re: [ontolog-forum] language vs logic - ambiguity and startingwithdefinitions, Rick Murphy Re: [ontolog-forum] language vs logic - ambiguity and startingwithdefinitions, Christopher Menzel