DF wrote:
'Extending this, classes/types, relations/predicates, and functions are
also "things" if they are in the universe of discourse.'
Agree.
"Cyc's #$Thing includes all these as instances as well as individuals."
Here sorry to disagree.
Indeed, Thing is dubbed as "the universal collection" of which everything is
a member. But the ontological distinction between universals and
particulars, classes and members, collections and individuals, is confusing. (01)
Thing is divided into Individual ("the collection of all things that are
not collections, abstract and concrete, include physical objects, events,
numbers, relations, and groups") and Intangible Thing ("things that are not
physical, including events...and ideas"). (02)
Individuals, concrete and abstract, and Intangible, not having physical
substance, both are neither separate classes, nor disjoint things. Now what
events are unclear: Individuals or Intangible things. (03)
The third level is made of relations, sets, and collections, or natural
kinds and classes, with elements, supercollections and subcollections (04)
The relationship is misleadingly treated as a formal entity, and it is
improperly among "sets" and "collections", deprecated as a conceptual thing:
"relationship is a mathematical object". That alone kills all the big
effort. (05)
'They do require symbols other than the symbols used by humans, similar to
the significants in human minds.'
It is. Take the OS model dividing communication systems into hierrchical
layers from the Physical to the Application. Each layer specified by
characteristic data units: Bit, Frame, Packet, Segments or Data. Whatever,
it is still a sort of symbolic representations to be liable to semiotic
rules: syntactic, semantic and pragmatic.
Azamat Abdoullaev (06)
----- Original Message -----
From: "doug foxvog" <doug@xxxxxxxxxx>
To: "[ontolog-forum]" <ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 8:04 AM
Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Triadic Sign Relations (07)
>
> On Mon, August 16, 2010 14:36, AzamatAbdoullaev said:
>> RC wrote:
>>> ...
>>> "Another interesting aspect of your answer is that you use the word
>>> "thing" as the most general of all thingish words like object,
>>> plurality,
>>> stuff, material .; is that your mental image of the word "thing", as the
>>> most abstract of all objects?
>
>> ASHA: Yes, Thing refers to the Universal Class of all sorts of entities,
>> implying the universal property of all entities, whereas Nothing refers
>> to
>> the Null Class .
>
> There are many definitions of "thing". It is useful to have a common
> term for the universal class and many ontologies have used the word
> "thing".
>
>> RC: Can a "thing" include an action, method, plan, history of the
>> foregoing?"
>
>> ASHA: In the broad sense, it is a substance, state, change, process as
>> far
>> as "every sign is also a thing, for what is not a thing is nothing at
>> all".
>
> Extending this, classes/types, relations/predicates, and functions are
> also "things" if they are in the universe of discourse. Cyc's #$Thing
> includes all these as instances as well as individuals.
>
>> In NL, words are the signs of ideas and images, thoughts and feelings,
>> while the mental signs are the similitudes of things.
>
>> The beauty of machines consists in that they don't require the mental
>> signs (ideas and images) as the medium whereby symbols (physical signals)
>> could signify the real things.
>
> They do require symbols other than the symbols used by humans, similar to
> the significants in human minds.
>
> -- doug
>
>> Azamat Abdoullaev
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Rich Cooper
>> To: '[ontolog-forum] '
>> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 12:20 AM
>> Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Triadic Sign Relations
>>
>>
>> Hi Azamat,
>>
>>
>>
>> You wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> "That confuses me no end if Peirceans can't tie the theory to some
>> commonly understood reality for me. Is there a more fruitful
>> description that explains the language used and chosen for that
>> representation?"
>>
>> Rich,
>>
>> The nature of signs and symbols and significations, their definition,
>> elements, and types, was mainly established by Aristotle, Augustine, and
>> Aquinas.
>>
>> According to these classic sources, significance is a relationship
>> between two sorts of things: signs and the kinds of things they signify
>> (intend, express or mean), where one term necessarily causes something
>> else to come to the mind. Distinguishing natural signs and conventional
>> signs, the traditional theory of signs sets the following threefold
>> partition of things:
>>
>> 1.. There are things that are just things, not any sign at all;
>> 2.. There are things that are also signs of other things (as natural
>> signs of the physical world and mental signs of the mind);
>> 3.. There are things that are always signs, as languages (natural and
>> artificial) and other cultural nonverbal symbols, as documents, money,
>> ceremonies, and rites. see a brief but comprehensive account,
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sign
>> Azamat Abdoullaev
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for your view on this; it helps me compare and contrast my own
>> theoretical understanding with yours.
>>
>>
>>
>> So a familiar sign S represents another sign S2 in one agent's mind,
>> yet
>> can represent only S itself in another agent's mind, while
>> simultaneously representing S3 (money, a document .) to still another
>> agent?
>>
>>
>>
>> Another interesting aspect of your answer is that you use the word
>> "thing" as the most general of all thingish words like object,
>> plurality, stuff, material .; is that your mental image of the word
>> "thing", as the most abstract of all objects?
>>
>>
>>
>> Can a "thing" include an action, method, plan, history of the
>> foregoing?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for the stimulating viewpoint,
>>
>> -Rich
>>
>>
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Rich Cooper
>>
>> EnglishLogicKernel.com
>>
>> Rich AT EnglishLogicKernel DOT com
>>
>> 9 4 9 \ 5 2 5 - 5 7 1 2
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Message Archives: http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontolog-forum/
>> Config Subscr: http://ontolog.cim3.net/mailman/listinfo/ontolog-forum/
>> Unsubscribe: mailto:ontolog-forum-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Shared Files: http://ontolog.cim3.net/file/
>> Community Wiki: http://ontolog.cim3.net/wiki/
>> To join: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?WikiHomePage#nid1J
>> To Post: mailto:ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Message Archives: http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontolog-forum/
>> Config Subscr: http://ontolog.cim3.net/mailman/listinfo/ontolog-forum/
>> Unsubscribe: mailto:ontolog-forum-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Shared Files: http://ontolog.cim3.net/file/
>> Community Wiki: http://ontolog.cim3.net/wiki/
>> To join: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?WikiHomePage#nid1J
>> To Post: mailto:ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>
>
>
> =============================================================
> doug foxvog doug@xxxxxxxxxx http://ProgressiveAustin.org
>
> "I speak as an American to the leaders of my own nation. The great
> initiative in this war is ours. The initiative to stop it must be ours."
> - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
> =============================================================
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Message Archives: http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontolog-forum/
> Config Subscr: http://ontolog.cim3.net/mailman/listinfo/ontolog-forum/
> Unsubscribe: mailto:ontolog-forum-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Shared Files: http://ontolog.cim3.net/file/
> Community Wiki: http://ontolog.cim3.net/wiki/
> To join: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?WikiHomePage#nid1J
> To Post: mailto:ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> (08)
_________________________________________________________________
Message Archives: http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontolog-forum/
Config Subscr: http://ontolog.cim3.net/mailman/listinfo/ontolog-forum/
Unsubscribe: mailto:ontolog-forum-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Shared Files: http://ontolog.cim3.net/file/
Community Wiki: http://ontolog.cim3.net/wiki/
To join: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?WikiHomePage#nid1J
To Post: mailto:ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (09)
|