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Re: [ontolog-forum] Opinions on critical thinking (was Model or Reality)

To: "[ontolog-forum]" <ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
From: Duane Nickull <dnickull@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2007 11:10:36 -0700
Message-id: <C2E0A6AC.555A%dnickull@xxxxxxxxx>
Yes - realize "wrong" was not used and it is 100% my story/opinion that I
inferred this.     (01)

;-)    (02)

The statement was made about " the ability to think critically is lost"
which is not necessarily factual.    (03)

D    (04)


On 8/9/07 11:03 AM, "Gary Berg-Cross" <gary.berg-cross@xxxxxxxx> wrote:    (05)

> Duane,
> 
> While Pat didn't use the word "wrong" I'm not sure anyone one else did either.
> Here is what the tread said:
> 
> ( think it was Chris that said;)
>>> Fair enough, though I think that over time the beliefs in question
>>> *do* become psychologically unshakeable, as the ability to think
>>> critically is lost and one's worldview becomes fixed and ossified.
>>> At that point the marginalization or destruction of "nonbelievers" is
>>> no longer rooted in a fear of being wrong but rather in a sort of
>>> hardwired irrationality.
> 
> Pat replied
>> I agree, ....
> 
> I added, in agreement:
> 
>> Almost makes one believe in the idea of modular, independent intelligence
>> which is not easily reached by our general, rational ability which is built
>> on
>> top of these earlier ones (in an evolutionary sense).
> 
> I hope this was careful enough. :-)
> 
> Gary Berg-Cross, Ph.D.
> Spatial Ontology Community of Practice (SOCoP)
> http://www.visualknowledge.com/wiki/socop
> Executive Secretariat
> Semantic Technology
> EM&I 
> Suite 350  455 Spring park Place
> Herndon VA  20170
> 703-742-0585
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Duane Nickull
> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 1:55 PM
> To: [ontolog-forum]
> Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Model or Reality
> 
> As much as I personally disagree with the concept of a fatwah, it is not
> wrong.  "Wrong" is just an opinion and not necessarily fact unless you
> define wrong as some magical consensus of society.  Until that is done, it
> is all just opinion, story, etc.  Of course in our society and this context
> I don't think anyone would agree that the concept of fatwah against Mr.
> Rushdie is "good", but it helps to be able to differentiate fact from story.
> 
> "The person has lost their ability to think critically" = someone's opinion,
> not fact.  How do you know he has not thought about this critically and come
> to that conclusion based on his reality?
> 
> Pat was very careful to avoid stating the person was full of bunk.  He just
> stated what the person believed.
> 
> Duane
> (No flames please.  I am not condoning violence etc.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 8/9/07 10:43 AM, "Gary Berg-Cross" <gary.berg-cross@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> 
>> Pat provides a example of a person losing the ability to think  critically as
>> their worldview becomes fixed and ossified ("I once met an apparently
>> reasonable, rational, intelligent western
>> academic who had adopted Islam as an adult and
>> who told me, as though it was the most natural
>> thing in the world, kind of obvious really, that
>> given the chance he would kill Salman Rushdie,
>> because there was a fatwah on his head. ...")
>> 
>> Almost makes one believe in the idea of modular, independent intelligence
>> which is not easily reached by our general, rational ability which is built
>> on
>> top of these earlier ones (in an evolutionary sense).
>> 
>> Gary Berg-Cross, Ph.D.
>> Spatial Ontology Community of Practice (SOCoP)
>> http://www.visualknowledge.com/wiki/socop
>> Executive Secretariat
>> Semantic Technology
>> EM&I 
>> Suite 350  455 Spring park Place
>> Herndon VA  20170
>> 703-742-0585
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Pat Hayes
>> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 1:31 PM
>> To: Christopher Menzel
>> Cc: [ontolog-forum]
>> Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Model or Reality
>> 
>>> On Aug 8, 2007, at 4:58 PM, Kathryn Blackmond Laskey wrote:
>>>>  I have known a few "true believers" who grew to question beliefs they
>>>>  had once considered unshakeable. In retrospect, they agreed that if
>>>>  their beliefs had really been all that unshakeable, they wouldn't
>>>>  have felt such a need to stamp out the opposition.
>>>> 
>>>>  It is those whose beliefs are NOT unshakeable, but who WANT them to
>>>>  be unshakeable because they are afraid of having their worldview
>>>>  turned upside down, who have a psychological need to marginalize or
>>>>  destroy those who don't agree with them.
>>> 
>>> Fair enough, though I think that over time the beliefs in question 
>>> *do* become psychologically unshakeable, as the ability to think 
>>> critically is lost and one's worldview becomes fixed and ossified.  
>>> At that point the marginalization or destruction of "nonbelievers" is 
>>> no longer rooted in a fear of being wrong but rather in a sort of 
>>> hardwired irrationality.
>> 
>> I agree, though I don't think it necessarily
>> takes very long. I once met an apparently
>> reasonable, rational, intelligent western
>> academic who had adopted Islam as an adult and
>> who told me, as though it was the most natural
>> thing in the world, kind of obvious really, that
>> given the chance he would kill Salman Rushdie,
>> because there was a fatwah on his head. Which
>> meant that to kill him was God's will and any
>> Muslim's holy duty. He was quite calm about it,
>> but he wasn't joking. Then we went on talking
>> about computer science and had lunch. So although
>> true believers can lose their faith, the reverse
>> can also happen.
>> 
>> Pat
>> 
>>> 
>>> -chris
>  
>  
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