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Re: [ontolog-forum] Terminology Question concerning WebArchitecture and

To: "Azamat Abdoullaev" <abdoul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: "[ontolog-forum] " <ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
From: Pat Hayes <phayes@xxxxxxx>
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 12:31:03 -0500
Message-id: <p0623090ac2cd37027962@[]>
>Some comments below.
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "Pat Hayes" <<mailto:phayes@xxxxxxx>phayes@xxxxxxx>
>>>To: "Azamat Abdoullaev" 
>>>Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 10:15 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Terminology Question concerning 
>>>WebArchitecture and LinkedData
>>>  > >----- Original Message ----- From: "Pat Hayes" 
>>>>>To: "Azamat" <<mailto:abdoul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>abdoul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>Cc: "[ontolog-forum] " 
>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 8:33 PM
>>>>>Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Terminology Question concerning
>>>>>WebArchitecture and LinkedData
>>>>>>   >Denise,
>>>>>>>''A common world model'', or a single global ontology, is a 
>>>>>>>necessary and
>>>>>>>sufficient condition of powerful intelligent systems.
>>>>>>Well, that is wrong both ways round. It is certainly not
>>>>>>sufficient: an ontology by itself, no matter how global or common
>>>>>>or all-encompassing, does not DO anything, and intelligence is only
>>>>>>revealed in activity of some kind. And it is not necessary, since
>>>>>>the only exemplars we have of intelligence are ourselves - human
>>>>>>intelligence - and we do not have a single common world model.
>>>>>You do have it. Just don't feel it.
>>>>  No, we really do not have a single common ontology. This is quite
>>>>  evident when one tries to get people to agree on a formal ontology.
>>>>  They seriously disagree - that is, they each find the other's point
>>>>  of view insane, and will argue for hours, in some cases for years -
>>>>  about questions such as:
>>>>  -- is the paint on the wall of a room in the room, or part of the room?
>>>>  -- is saying that a cat is eating at a time t the same as saying that
>>>>  the temporal part of the cat at t is eating?
>>>>  -- is a cat at a time t the same thing as the same cat at a 
>>>>different time t'?
>>>>  and many, many others.
>>>This is a sort of sophistical technicalities, created by 
>>>endurantists and perdurantists, and irrelevant to a serious 
>>Im afraid it is highly relevant. I wish it
>>weren't, but it is. Any real ontology, as opposed
>>to a general dream of an ontology, needs to
>>grapple with issues such as this. And in any
>>case, my point here is that people do not agree.
>>If it were the case that people typically had no
>>opinion on matters like this, then maybe that
>>might be some (very weak) evidence that these
>>issues are irrelevant; but that is not what one
>>finds. In fact, people do have very firm
>>opinions, deeply held, and they often find any
>>other views than their own almost impossible to
>>understand without careful study. They use terms
>>like 'ridiculous' and 'implausible' and 'wildly
>>counterintuitive' and 'incoherent' when faced
>>with the other point of view. All of which
>>strongly suggests to me (and there is
>>laboratory-grade evidence to back this up) that
>>people may well have extremely different
>>ontologies in their heads.
>3D endurance theory and 4D perdurance theory are just special attempts to
>explain the continuity over time of material objects, their persistence and
>identity. That objects have temporal parts (perdurantism) as much as spatial
>parts (endurantism) is not something making a great point.    (01)

That is not the chief division between them. I agree that alone would 
not amount to much. The big issue is the endurantist's notion of a 
'continuant'. This is an entity which fully exists at every time it 
exists, and has no temporal duration or structure, yet endures 
through time; its properties are not temporally relative, yet they 
may differ at different times. This idea, if taken seriously, 
requires one to re-build the foundations of temporal logic. I have 
not yet seen a coherent formalization which does this notion justice, 
in fact. As others on this list have urged, it requires one to 
re-think what it means for something to exist in time; or to admit 
two fundamentally different ways or modes of being in time.    (02)

>  Although, it
>might be funny for the fiction writers to apply such ideas to time travel or
>Original Sin, or something of this irreal topic. Now imagine that You ( a
>sequence of temporal parts as well) are responsible for the Adam and Eve's
>sins, just because humanity is a temporally continous whole, where each
>temporal part is liable for misdeeds of other temporal parts.
>This issues presents only some special aspects of the standard ontological
>problem of change and identity, which can be principally solved just by
>fundamental, or universal ontology.    (03)

Well, I look forward to seeing yet another proposal for tackling this 
long-standing issue. :-)    (04)

Pat    (05)

>Neither perdurantists nor endurantists
>(exdurantists, wormists, or what-not) are of great use in establishing a
>true relationship between change and identity.
>>>  >
>>>>>>>A fundamental ontology is not a matter of choice or discussion. It is an
>>>>>>>essential constituent of any knowledge, human or 
>>>>>>>machine-understandable, of
>>>>>>>any reasoning, natural or artificial, of any language, natural 
>>>>>>>or formal, of
>>>>>>>any artefacts, physical or intelligent,
>>>>>>Sorry, but this is nonsense. Reasoning takes place in mathematics,
>>>>>>for example, without the benefit of a fundamental ontology.
>>>>>Sorry, but this is a real nonsense. All great mathematical theories
>>>>>are underpinned by fundamental ontology, its categories and rules.
>>>>  What categories and rules of an ontology are required for, say,
>>>>  algebraic topology, or formal set theory?
>>>the universe, set, class, entity, object, structure, order and relationship.
>>Set theory assumes sets and (in some cases)
>>proper classes, nothing else. Algebraic topology
>>assumes topological spaces (which include
>>continuous mappings) and groups (with
>>homomorphisms) nothing else.
>The things here look more interesting. By the way, ''nothing'', or
>''nonentity'' or ''nonbeing'', interpreted as the empty set, is another
>ontological category.
>>>  No wonder that the originator of set theory in his foundational 
>>>work (Cantor, 1883), considered his creation as an extension of a 
>>>classical ontology.
>>What ontologies even existed in 1883?
>>>Cantor, G. (1883). Foundations of a General Theory of Aggregates. 
>>>In W. Ewald  (Ed.) (1996). From Kant to Hilbert: A Source Book in 
>>>the Foundations of Mathematics. 2 Vols. Oxford: Oxford Uni. Press.
>>>Exploiting your interest and expertise, and for more systematic 
>>>answer, i am ready to present for your editorial comments the 
>>>Chapter III titled,
>>>THE WORLD CODE: Mathematical Ontology as the Real Road to Reality 
>>>(9 pages, single spaced) .
>>By all means point me at it. I doubt if we will
>>agree on its contents, though :-)
>To my mind, any professional criticism, agreeable or disagreeble, is of
>valuable use. The content will be emailed to day, with a humble request to
>return your comments as soon as you can.
>>>  >
>>>>  Pat
>>>>>   Also all the great mathematicians have been also good ontologists
>>>>>like Cantor.
>>>>>>IHMC (850)434 8903 or (650)494 3973   home
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>>>>  --
>>>>  ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>  IHMC (850)434 8903 or (650)494 3973   home
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>>>>  FL 32502 (850)291 0667    cell
>>>>  phayesAT-SIGNihmc.us 
>>IHMC (850)434 8903 or (650)494 3973   home
>>40 South Alcaniz St. (850)202 4416   office
>>Pensacola (850)202 4440   fax
>>FL 32502 (850)291 0667    cell
>>phayesAT-SIGNihmc.us       http://www.ihmc.us/users/phayes    (06)

IHMC            (850)434 8903 or (650)494 3973   home
40 South Alcaniz St.    (850)202 4416   office
Pensacola                       (850)202 4440   fax
FL 32502                        (850)291 0667    cell
phayesAT-SIGNihmc.us       http://www.ihmc.us/users/phayes    (07)

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