Re: [ontology-summit] Track on Cyc?

[Nicola Guarino <guarino@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Personally, I agree with Amanda on not having a new track dedicated to Cyc, keeping the Summit focused on the themes we have selected already, while rather carving some space to consider the specific ways Cyc addresses the issues at hand.

In particular, I would like to underline the fact that, for the first time (I guess) the Ontology Summit this year is not mainly focusing on ontologies as such, but on how ontologies can be used to better understand and realize large scale systems. Having a track on Cyc would contribute to shift the focus inside the community – so to say – while I wish we look more "outside"...

Nicola

On 27/gen/2012, at 21:40, Peter Yim <peter.yim@xxxxxxxx> wrote:

Again, of course, pursuing it by continuing this conversation as a threaded discussion asynchronously could bear fruit too! =ppy
--
 

On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 12:34 PM, Amanda Vizedom <amanda.vizedom@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Larry Lefkowitz was on the call and chat for the first two sessions, and especially active in chat for Session 2. I don't think anyone from Cycorp attended Session 3.  

I agree with Peter that it seems too much, too late -- and not necessarily on topic -- to spend a whole track, or even a whole session, given the limited number, on Cyc.  However, I'd like to suggest that it might be good to include a Cyc-based use case in Track 4.

As I see it, there are two very different types of use case to consider, here. 

The first is along the lines that Mike suggested: Look at an example of the incorporation of Cyc into a larger system, e.g. the Cleveland Clinic case.  I am sure there are many useful challenges, solutions, issues and lessons to be drawn from there.

The second involves looking at Cyc as a use case itself.  It's often the case that when people say "Cyc" they mean the ontology, or the knowledge base, but of course Cyc is itself a system, and quite a complex one at that.  It can be extendend, incorporated, taken partially, and/or connected to other components to form other systems with "Cyc Inside." And that's generally where the value is going to be. Nevertheless, it is quite a complex system on its own. There is "the ontology," (really, as Doug F. indicated, a complex system of ontologies, managed and related via the Microtheory construct). There is also the language, CycL, itself, and its implementation. There is the inference engine, with its own complexity of theorem prover, heuristic modules, and implemented strategies for choosing what to pursue when. There are a variety of interfaces. The ontology is constantly evolving, and there are components and subsystems dealing with truth maintenance, bookkeeping and provenance, traceability, testing, etc. 

Many of these subsystems were well-established, any many continuing to be developed, when I started working on Cyc at 1998. One thing I am often struck by is that many of the issues that appear as new or emergent in semantic technologies now were already being addressed in thoughtful and sophisticated ways in the Cyc system then. Cyc still has challenges, of course, but there is much to learn from the many person years of experience, and multiple rounds of implementation, learning, and revision, done on many of these fronts.  

There are also some technical folks at Cycorp with enough Systems Engineering background that they might be especially able to contribute to the summit topic. I recall the Robert Kahlert was always especially interested in what Systems Engineering methods and Ontology might, or ought to, have to contribute to one another. 

Either way (that is, an application of Cyc or Cyc as a System), I think a Cyc-based use case would be good to include in Track 4. Two cents for the Track 4 champions to consider.

Amanda

On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 14:43, Obrst, Leo J. <lobrst@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Actually, I think some of the Cyc folks are participating in this Summit.

Thanks,
Leo

-----Original Message-----
From: ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Mike Bennett
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 8:48 AM
To: Ontology Summit 2012 discussion
Subject: Re: [ontology-summit] Track on Cyc?

That would be good. It would also be valuable to unpack the
stated disconnect between the ontology and IT in terms of
ontology quality / QA related issues.

Dealing with the connection or otherwise between ontologies and
IT is something I think is relevant to a lot of people. All too
often the push towards the use of semantic technologies becomes a
push to do everything as triple stores and semantic queries,
without considering the use of ontologies within conventional
technology environments, I think.

Mike

On 27/01/2012 05:00, John F. Sowa wrote:
> In reviewing the discussions about Big Systems, I noticed that the
> world's biggest formal ontology, which has been used in conjunction
> with very large commercial applications hasn't been discussed.
>
> That is Cyc.  It was founded in 1984 as part of MCC and spun off
> as an independent company, CycCorp, in 1994.  They had 28 years
> of continuous development.  After the first 25 years, they had
> devoted 1000 person years (a full person millennium!) to the
> development.  They also have a long list of publications that
> are available for download:  http://cyc.com/cyc/technology/pubs
>
> If we really want to know what a large ontology system can do and
> how it can be used in conjunction with mainstream IT, I suggest
> that we devote an entire track of the Ontology Summit to Cyc.
>
> Among the many participants in Ontolog Forum, Doug Foxvog and
> Amanda Vizedom were employed at Cyc.  They could present talks
> about their experience at Cyc, what lessons they learned from it,
> and how their work at Cyc compares to projects that they have
> worked on since them.
>
> I would expect them to give a balanced treatment of the strengths
> and weaknesses of Cyc.  Many of us have had many criticisms
> about various aspects of Cyc, but any AI company that can
> stay in business for 28 years is a major achievement.  We
> should try to learn as much as we can from their experience.
>
> Another person who used Cyc extensively back in the 1990s is
> Bill Anderson.  He and his group worked on DoD projects that used
> Cyc to develop ontologies and applications.  As a result of that
> experience, they started their own company, Ontology Works,
> which has more recently been renamed High Fleet.
>
> I would like to hear a talk by Bill about his experiences with
> Cyc and how that led him and his colleagues to found their
> own company.  It would be very interesting to hear a comparison
> of the applications and methodologies used with Cyc and the
> experience they have had at Ontology Works and High Fleet.
>
> I would expect these talks to cover both positive and negative
> aspects of Cyc.  But it would also be good to invite somebody
> who is currently working at Cyc to present their views.  As
> an example, one of the biggest applications of Cyc is at
> the Cleveland Clinic:
>
> http://www.cyc.com/technology/whitepapers_dir/Harnessing_Cyc_to_Answer_Clincal_Researchers_ad_hoc_Queries.pdf
>
> I also spoke briefly to somebody from the Cleveland Clinic, who
> said that there was a large "disconnect" between the methods
> used for Cyc and the mainstream IT methods that their programmers
> were familiar with.  That is a very serious issue that has
> plagued many AI projects, and I'd like to hear about the issues
> from both ends:  the Cyc personnel and some knowledgeable IT
> developer at the Cleveland Clinic.
>
> This is the kind of track that would be highly informative
> for people with a background in either or both mainstream IT
> and AI technology.  And it's hard to find any ontology project
> that is bigger than Cyc.
>
> John
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Msg Archives: http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontology-summit/
> Subscribe/Config: http://ontolog.cim3.net/mailman/listinfo/ontology-summit/
> Unsubscribe: mailto:ontology-summit-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Community Files: http://ontolog.cim3.net/file/work/OntologySummit2012/
> Community Wiki: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?OntologySummit2012
> Community Portal: http://ontolog.cim3.net/wiki/
>
>


--
Mike Bennett
Director
Hypercube Ltd.
89 Worship Street
London EC2A 2BF
Tel: +44 (0) 20 7917 9522
Mob: +44 (0) 7721 420 730
www.hypercube.co.uk
Registered in England and Wales No. 2461068


_________________________________________________________________
Msg Archives: http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontology-summit/
Subscribe/Config: http://ontolog.cim3.net/mailman/listinfo/ontology-summit/
Unsubscribe: mailto:ontology-summit-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Community Files: http://ontolog.cim3.net/file/work/OntologySummit2012/
Community Wiki: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?OntologySummit2012
Community Portal: http://ontolog.cim3.net/wiki/

_________________________________________________________________
Msg Archives: http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontology-summit/
Subscribe/Config: http://ontolog.cim3.net/mailman/listinfo/ontology-summit/
Unsubscribe: mailto:ontology-summit-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Community Files: http://ontolog.cim3.net/file/work/OntologySummit2012/
Community Wiki: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?OntologySummit2012
Community Portal: http://ontolog.cim3.net/wiki/

_________________________________________________________________
Msg Archives: http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontology-summit/
Subscribe/Config: http://ontolog.cim3.net/mailman/listinfo/ontology-summit/
Unsubscribe: mailto:ontology-summit-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Community Files: http://ontolog.cim3.net/file/work/OntologySummit2012/
Community Wiki: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?OntologySummit2012
Community Portal: http://ontolog.cim3.net/wiki/

_________________________________________________________________
Msg Archives: http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontology-summit/   
Subscribe/Config: http://ontolog.cim3.net/mailman/listinfo/ontology-summit/  
Unsubscribe: mailto:ontology-summit-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Community Files: http://ontolog.cim3.net/file/work/OntologySummit2012/
Community Wiki: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?OntologySummit2012  
Community Portal: http://ontolog.cim3.net/wiki/

_________________________________________________________________
Msg Archives: http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontology-summit/   
Subscribe/Config: http://ontolog.cim3.net/mailman/listinfo/ontology-summit/  
Unsubscribe: mailto:ontology-summit-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Community Files: http://ontolog.cim3.net/file/work/OntologySummit2012/
Community Wiki: http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?OntologySummit2012  
Community Portal: http://ontolog.cim3.net/wiki/     (01)