<
amanda.vizedom@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Barry,
>
> I assume that Steve and Trish will be following the spirit and description
> of Track 4 and asking all invitees to talk about *use cases*, including
> interesting features and lessons learned (including whatever evaluations of
> performance and value may have been performed). I've no doubt that
> promotional or sales-like presentations will be discouraged equally of
> anyone participating.
>
> That said, I doubt that *any* use case owner is going to be willing to share
> their case or lessons openly if they feel that the summit will be used as a
> trial venue for them, their system, their methods and such overall. And
> even if they were willing, such a treatment would be just as off-topic as
> its promotional opposite.
>
> All,
>
> I share Matthew's concerns about focus, and I don't think we're going to get
> there by defining focus in the abstract. I think we will be best able to
> make progress by having some of this general discussion, then looking at
> particular use cases to sharpen our focus. From there some foci should
> emerge that are close enough to where real work is being done to point the
> continuing discussion toward areas in which the results of this community's
> exchange of idea can be of real use.
>
> If this approach is right, it's important that we have a good set of use
> cases *and treat them as use cases*. That is, we want to analyze and learn
> from them, collaboratively. We will lose that opportunity if we treat them
> either as promotional sessions or adversarial encounters. I trust our Track
> 4 co-champions to focus on bringing in presenters who have the knowledge and
> attitude to provide their use cases for collective analysis and discussion
> (and who very probably see that setting the community thinking about
> issues they encountered has high potential value for their own, and the
> field's, understanding). To encourage such participation and to get the most
> out of it, we need to stay focused on the professional, technical
> collaboration, not on individual or product promotion or denigration, as
> well.
>
> Best,
> Amanda
>
> On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 20:11, Barry Smith <
phismith@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>> Any speaker should be asked to provide empirical evidence to the effect
>> that Cyc did indeed bring benefits to any real system
>> BS
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 2:01 AM, Steve Ray (CMU) <
steve.ray@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Speaking for Track 4, I'll add the possibility of a talk about the
>>> application of cyc to a real industrial system.
>>>
>>> Suggestions of a speaker (and email introduction) for that particular
>>> angle would be much appreciated.
>>>
>>>
>>> - Steve
>>>
>>> On Jan 27, 2012, at 1:34 PM, Amanda Vizedom <
amanda.vizedom@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Larry Lefkowitz was on the call and chat for the first two sessions, and
>>> especially active in chat for Session 2. I don't think anyone from Cycorp
>>> attended Session 3.
>>>
>>> I agree with Peter that it seems too much, too late -- and not
>>> necessarily on topic -- to spend a whole track, or even a whole session,
>>> given the limited number, on Cyc. However, I'd like to suggest that it
>>> might be good to include a Cyc-based use case in Track 4.
>>>
>>> As I see it, there are two very different types of use case to consider,
>>> here.
>>>
>>> The first is along the lines that Mike suggested: Look at an example of
>>> the incorporation of Cyc into a larger system, e.g. the Cleveland Clinic
>>> case. I am sure there are many useful challenges, solutions, issues and
>>> lessons to be drawn from there.
>>>
>>> The second involves looking at Cyc as a use case itself. It's often the
>>> case that when people say "Cyc" they mean the ontology, or the knowledge
>>> base, but of course Cyc is itself a system, and quite a complex one at that.
>>> It can be extendend, incorporated, taken partially, and/or connected to
>>> other components to form other systems with "Cyc Inside." And that's
>>> generally where the value is going to be. Nevertheless, it is quite a
>>> complex system on its own. There is "the ontology," (really, as Doug F.
>>> indicated, a complex system of ontologies, managed and related via the
>>> Microtheory construct). There is also the language, CycL, itself, and its
>>> implementation. There is the inference engine, with its own complexity of
>>> theorem prover, heuristic modules, and implemented strategies for choosing
>>> what to pursue when. There are a variety of interfaces. The ontology is
>>> constantly evolving, and there are components and subsystems dealing with
>>> truth maintenance, bookkeeping and provenance, traceability, testing, etc.
>>>
>>> Many of these subsystems were well-established, any many continuing to be
>>> developed, when I started working on Cyc at 1998. One thing I am often
>>> struck by is that many of the issues that appear as new or emergent in
>>> semantic technologies now were already being addressed in thoughtful and
>>> sophisticated ways in the Cyc system then. Cyc still has challenges, of
>>> course, but there is much to learn from the many person years of experience,
>>> and multiple rounds of implementation, learning, and revision, done on many
>>> of these fronts.
>>>
>>> There are also some technical folks at Cycorp with enough Systems
>>> Engineering background that they might be especially able to contribute to
>>> the summit topic. I recall the Robert Kahlert was always especially
>>> interested in what Systems Engineering methods and Ontology might, or ought
>>> to, have to contribute to one another.
>>>
>>> Either way (that is, an application of Cyc or Cyc as a System), I think a
>>> Cyc-based use case would be good to include in Track 4. Two cents for the
>>> Track 4 champions to consider.
>>>
>>> Amanda
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 14:43, Obrst, Leo J. <
lobrst@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Actually, I think some of the Cyc folks are participating in this
>>>> Summit.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Leo
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From:
ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:
ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Mike Bennett
>>>> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 8:48 AM
>>>> To: Ontology Summit 2012 discussion
>>>> Subject: Re: [ontology-summit] Track on Cyc?
>>>>
>>>> That would be good. It would also be valuable to unpack the
>>>> stated disconnect between the ontology and IT in terms of
>>>> ontology quality / QA related issues.
>>>>
>>>> Dealing with the connection or otherwise between ontologies and
>>>> IT is something I think is relevant to a lot of people. All too
>>>> often the push towards the use of semantic technologies becomes a
>>>> push to do everything as triple stores and semantic queries,
>>>> without considering the use of ontologies within conventional
>>>> technology environments, I think.
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>> On 27/01/2012 05:00, John F. Sowa wrote:
>>>> > In reviewing the discussions about Big Systems, I noticed that the
>>>> > world's biggest formal ontology, which has been used in conjunction
>>>> > with very large commercial applications hasn't been discussed.
>>>> >
>>>> > That is Cyc. It was founded in 1984 as part of MCC and spun off
>>>> > as an independent company, CycCorp, in 1994. They had 28 years
>>>> > of continuous development. After the first 25 years, they had
>>>> > devoted 1000 person years (a full person millennium!) to the
>>>> > development. They also have a long list of publications that
>>>> > are available for download:
http://cyc.com/cyc/technology/pubs
>>>> >
>>>> > If we really want to know what a large ontology system can do and
>>>> > how it can be used in conjunction with mainstream IT, I suggest
>>>> > that we devote an entire track of the Ontology Summit to Cyc.
>>>> >
>>>> > Among the many participants in Ontolog Forum, Doug Foxvog and
>>>> > Amanda Vizedom were employed at Cyc. They could present talks
>>>> > about their experience at Cyc, what lessons they learned from it,
>>>> > and how their work at Cyc compares to projects that they have
>>>> > worked on since them.
>>>> >
>>>> > I would expect them to give a balanced treatment of the strengths
>>>> > and weaknesses of Cyc. Many of us have had many criticisms
>>>> > about various aspects of Cyc, but any AI company that can
>>>> > stay in business for 28 years is a major achievement. We
>>>> > should try to learn as much as we can from their experience.
>>>> >
>>>> > Another person who used Cyc extensively back in the 1990s is
>>>> > Bill Anderson. He and his group worked on DoD projects that used
>>>> > Cyc to develop ontologies and applications. As a result of that
>>>> > experience, they started their own company, Ontology Works,
>>>> > which has more recently been renamed High Fleet.
>>>> >
>>>> > I would like to hear a talk by Bill about his experiences with
>>>> > Cyc and how that led him and his colleagues to found their
>>>> > own company. It would be very interesting to hear a comparison
>>>> > of the applications and methodologies used with Cyc and the
>>>> > experience they have had at Ontology Works and High Fleet.
>>>> >
>>>> > I would expect these talks to cover both positive and negative
>>>> > aspects of Cyc. But it would also be good to invite somebody
>>>> > who is currently working at Cyc to present their views. As
>>>> > an example, one of the biggest applications of Cyc is at
>>>> > the Cleveland Clinic:
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
http://www.cyc.com/technology/whitepapers_dir/Harnessing_Cyc_to_Answer_Clincal_Researchers_ad_hoc_Queries.pdf
>>>> >
>>>> > I also spoke briefly to somebody from the Cleveland Clinic, who
>>>> > said that there was a large "disconnect" between the methods
>>>> > used for Cyc and the mainstream IT methods that their programmers
>>>> > were familiar with. That is a very serious issue that has
>>>> > plagued many AI projects, and I'd like to hear about the issues
>>>> > from both ends: the Cyc personnel and some knowledgeable IT
>>>> > developer at the Cleveland Clinic.
>>>> >
>>>> > This is the kind of track that would be highly informative
>>>> > for people with a background in either or both mainstream IT
>>>> > and AI technology. And it's hard to find any ontology project
>>>> > that is bigger than Cyc.
>>>> >
>>>> > John
>>>> >
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>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Mike Bennett
>>>> Director
>>>> Hypercube Ltd.
>>>> 89 Worship Street
>>>> London EC2A 2BF
>>>> Tel:
+44 (0) 20 7917 9522
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>>>>
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>>>>
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