Is an effective suppressor of adversarial interaction the asking of questions? (01)
On Jan 30, 2012, at 8:44 PM, Jack Park wrote: (02)
> Amanda,
>
> I suspect it's profoundly off topic to this thread, but not off topic
> to the entire ONTOLOG inquiry, and that is the exploration of
> alternate means of doing the very sensemaking going on in this email
> list combined with the highly successful wiki platform. My sense,
> FWIW, is that there is plenty of room to reduce the adversarial aspect
> of our conversations. But, that's a different conversation. Many
> thanks for your views here.
>
> JackP
>
> On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 7:39 PM, Amanda Vizedom
> <amanda.vizedom@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> Jack,
>>
>> Thanks for the alternate framing! Yes, that's very much the spirit
>> intended. While last year's summit was (atypically) focused on marketing,
>> this year's isn't. This year, the project is much more about advancing
>> understanding, sharing what we know and making collaborative steps to
>> advance understanding at the intersections.
>>
>> I would only add that IMHO this stage is also preparation that makes some
>> later-stages less adversarial and more productive. That is, going through
>> this kind of information exchange and collaborative exploration can propel
>> researchers to work on what industry actually needs, ontologists to
>> understand better what systems engineers actually want and need, systems
>> engineers to understand better what to expect from ontology and how to get
>> what they want from it, and all parties to understand better how to talk to
>> each other in order to communicate and get things done.
>>
>> Amada
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 22:01, Jack Park <jackpark@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>
>>> Amanda's suggestion lives in the spirit of a Bohmian Dialogue,
>>> described by David Bohm in his book On Dialogue. The spirit has it
>>> that all agendas are "checked at the door", that the conversation is
>>> about information transfer in a congenial way.
>>>
>>> In general, a Bohmian dialogue is used to set the stage for a later
>>> agenda-laden conversation, where the participants first get to know
>>> each other and talk about what they bring to the table without
>>> advertising agendas. Real information transfer can take place in such
>>> a non-adversarial environment.
>>>
>>> Jack
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 5:48 PM, Amanda Vizedom
>>> <amanda.vizedom@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>> Barry,
>>>>
>>>> I assume that Steve and Trish will be following the spirit and
>>>> description
>>>> of Track 4 and asking all invitees to talk about *use cases*, including
>>>> interesting features and lessons learned (including whatever evaluations
>>>> of
>>>> performance and value may have been performed). I've no doubt that
>>>> promotional or sales-like presentations will be discouraged equally of
>>>> anyone participating.
>>>>
>>>> That said, I doubt that *any* use case owner is going to be willing to
>>>> share
>>>> their case or lessons openly if they feel that the summit will be used
>>>> as a
>>>> trial venue for them, their system, their methods and such overall. And
>>>> even if they were willing, such a treatment would be just as off-topic
>>>> as
>>>> its promotional opposite.
>>>>
>>>> All,
>>>>
>>>> I share Matthew's concerns about focus, and I don't think we're going to
>>>> get
>>>> there by defining focus in the abstract. I think we will be best able
>>>> to
>>>> make progress by having some of this general discussion, then looking at
>>>> particular use cases to sharpen our focus. From there some foci should
>>>> emerge that are close enough to where real work is being done to point
>>>> the
>>>> continuing discussion toward areas in which the results of this
>>>> community's
>>>> exchange of idea can be of real use.
>>>>
>>>> If this approach is right, it's important that we have a good set of use
>>>> cases *and treat them as use cases*. That is, we want to analyze and
>>>> learn
>>>> from them, collaboratively. We will lose that opportunity if we treat
>>>> them
>>>> either as promotional sessions or adversarial encounters. I trust our
>>>> Track
>>>> 4 co-champions to focus on bringing in presenters who have the knowledge
>>>> and
>>>> attitude to provide their use cases for collective analysis and
>>>> discussion
>>>> (and who very probably see that setting the community thinking about
>>>> issues they encountered has high potential value for their own, and the
>>>> field's, understanding). To encourage such participation and to get the
>>>> most
>>>> out of it, we need to stay focused on the professional, technical
>>>> collaboration, not on individual or product promotion or denigration, as
>>>> well.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> Amanda
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 20:11, Barry Smith <phismith@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Any speaker should be asked to provide empirical evidence to the effect
>>>>> that Cyc did indeed bring benefits to any real system
>>>>> BS
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 2:01 AM, Steve Ray (CMU)
>>>>> <steve.ray@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Speaking for Track 4, I'll add the possibility of a talk about the
>>>>>> application of cyc to a real industrial system.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Suggestions of a speaker (and email introduction) for that particular
>>>>>> angle would be much appreciated.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Steve
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jan 27, 2012, at 1:34 PM, Amanda Vizedom <amanda.vizedom@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Larry Lefkowitz was on the call and chat for the first two sessions,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> especially active in chat for Session 2. I don't think anyone from
>>>>>> Cycorp
>>>>>> attended Session 3.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree with Peter that it seems too much, too late -- and not
>>>>>> necessarily on topic -- to spend a whole track, or even a whole
>>>>>> session,
>>>>>> given the limited number, on Cyc. However, I'd like to suggest that
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> might be good to include a Cyc-based use case in Track 4.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As I see it, there are two very different types of use case to
>>>>>> consider,
>>>>>> here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The first is along the lines that Mike suggested: Look at an example
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> the incorporation of Cyc into a larger system, e.g. the Cleveland
>>>>>> Clinic
>>>>>> case. I am sure there are many useful challenges, solutions, issues
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> lessons to be drawn from there.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The second involves looking at Cyc as a use case itself. It's often
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> case that when people say "Cyc" they mean the ontology, or the
>>>>>> knowledge
>>>>>> base, but of course Cyc is itself a system, and quite a complex one at
>>>>>> that.
>>>>>> It can be extendend, incorporated, taken partially, and/or connected
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> other components to form other systems with "Cyc Inside." And that's
>>>>>> generally where the value is going to be. Nevertheless, it is quite a
>>>>>> complex system on its own. There is "the ontology," (really, as Doug
>>>>>> F.
>>>>>> indicated, a complex system of ontologies, managed and related via the
>>>>>> Microtheory construct). There is also the language, CycL, itself, and
>>>>>> its
>>>>>> implementation. There is the inference engine, with its own complexity
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> theorem prover, heuristic modules, and implemented strategies for
>>>>>> choosing
>>>>>> what to pursue when. There are a variety of interfaces. The ontology
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> constantly evolving, and there are components and subsystems dealing
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> truth maintenance, bookkeeping and provenance, traceability, testing,
>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Many of these subsystems were well-established, any many continuing to
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> developed, when I started working on Cyc at 1998. One thing I am often
>>>>>> struck by is that many of the issues that appear as new or emergent in
>>>>>> semantic technologies now were already being addressed in thoughtful
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> sophisticated ways in the Cyc system then. Cyc still has challenges,
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> course, but there is much to learn from the many person years of
>>>>>> experience,
>>>>>> and multiple rounds of implementation, learning, and revision, done on
>>>>>> many
>>>>>> of these fronts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are also some technical folks at Cycorp with enough Systems
>>>>>> Engineering background that they might be especially able to
>>>>>> contribute to
>>>>>> the summit topic. I recall the Robert Kahlert was always especially
>>>>>> interested in what Systems Engineering methods and Ontology might, or
>>>>>> ought
>>>>>> to, have to contribute to one another.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Either way (that is, an application of Cyc or Cyc as a System), I
>>>>>> think a
>>>>>> Cyc-based use case would be good to include in Track 4. Two cents for
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> Track 4 champions to consider.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Amanda
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 14:43, Obrst, Leo J. <lobrst@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Actually, I think some of the Cyc folks are participating in this
>>>>>>> Summit.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> Leo
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>> [mailto:ontology-summit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Mike
>>>>>>> Bennett
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 8:48 AM
>>>>>>> To: Ontology Summit 2012 discussion
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ontology-summit] Track on Cyc?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That would be good. It would also be valuable to unpack the
>>>>>>> stated disconnect between the ontology and IT in terms of
>>>>>>> ontology quality / QA related issues.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dealing with the connection or otherwise between ontologies and
>>>>>>> IT is something I think is relevant to a lot of people. All too
>>>>>>> often the push towards the use of semantic technologies becomes a
>>>>>>> push to do everything as triple stores and semantic queries,
>>>>>>> without considering the use of ontologies within conventional
>>>>>>> technology environments, I think.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 27/01/2012 05:00, John F. Sowa wrote:
>>>>>>>> In reviewing the discussions about Big Systems, I noticed that the
>>>>>>>> world's biggest formal ontology, which has been used in conjunction
>>>>>>>> with very large commercial applications hasn't been discussed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That is Cyc. It was founded in 1984 as part of MCC and spun off
>>>>>>>> as an independent company, CycCorp, in 1994. They had 28 years
>>>>>>>> of continuous development. After the first 25 years, they had
>>>>>>>> devoted 1000 person years (a full person millennium!) to the
>>>>>>>> development. They also have a long list of publications that
>>>>>>>> are available for download: http://cyc.com/cyc/technology/pubs
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If we really want to know what a large ontology system can do and
>>>>>>>> how it can be used in conjunction with mainstream IT, I suggest
>>>>>>>> that we devote an entire track of the Ontology Summit to Cyc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Among the many participants in Ontolog Forum, Doug Foxvog and
>>>>>>>> Amanda Vizedom were employed at Cyc. They could present talks
>>>>>>>> about their experience at Cyc, what lessons they learned from it,
>>>>>>>> and how their work at Cyc compares to projects that they have
>>>>>>>> worked on since them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I would expect them to give a balanced treatment of the strengths
>>>>>>>> and weaknesses of Cyc. Many of us have had many criticisms
>>>>>>>> about various aspects of Cyc, but any AI company that can
>>>>>>>> stay in business for 28 years is a major achievement. We
>>>>>>>> should try to learn as much as we can from their experience.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Another person who used Cyc extensively back in the 1990s is
>>>>>>>> Bill Anderson. He and his group worked on DoD projects that used
>>>>>>>> Cyc to develop ontologies and applications. As a result of that
>>>>>>>> experience, they started their own company, Ontology Works,
>>>>>>>> which has more recently been renamed High Fleet.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I would like to hear a talk by Bill about his experiences with
>>>>>>>> Cyc and how that led him and his colleagues to found their
>>>>>>>> own company. It would be very interesting to hear a comparison
>>>>>>>> of the applications and methodologies used with Cyc and the
>>>>>>>> experience they have had at Ontology Works and High Fleet.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I would expect these talks to cover both positive and negative
>>>>>>>> aspects of Cyc. But it would also be good to invite somebody
>>>>>>>> who is currently working at Cyc to present their views. As
>>>>>>>> an example, one of the biggest applications of Cyc is at
>>>>>>>> the Cleveland Clinic:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>http://www.cyc.com/technology/whitepapers_dir/Harnessing_Cyc_to_Answer_Clincal_Researchers_ad_hoc_Queries.pdf
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I also spoke briefly to somebody from the Cleveland Clinic, who
>>>>>>>> said that there was a large "disconnect" between the methods
>>>>>>>> used for Cyc and the mainstream IT methods that their programmers
>>>>>>>> were familiar with. That is a very serious issue that has
>>>>>>>> plagued many AI projects, and I'd like to hear about the issues
>>>>>>>> from both ends: the Cyc personnel and some knowledgeable IT
>>>>>>>> developer at the Cleveland Clinic.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is the kind of track that would be highly informative
>>>>>>>> for people with a background in either or both mainstream IT
>>>>>>>> and AI technology. And it's hard to find any ontology project
>>>>>>>> that is bigger than Cyc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Mike Bennett
>>>>>>> Director
>>>>>>> Hypercube Ltd.
>>>>>>> 89 Worship Street
>>>>>>> London EC2A 2BF
>>>>>>> Tel: +44 (0) 20 7917 9522
>>>>>>> Mob: +44 (0) 7721 420 730
>>>>>>> www.hypercube.co.uk
>>>>>>> Registered in England and Wales No. 2461068
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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