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On 27 January 2012 14:26, Wartik, Steven P "Steve" <swartik@xxxxxxx> wrote:
Job 38:22: “Have you entered the storehouses of the snow …?”
But this returns us to an earlier theme in this thread, namely that of temporality.
Are you saying that raindrops are persistent. Where do they hang out before falling? On Jan 26, 2012, at 10:13 AM, Matthew West wrote:
A system in which the Sun and Moon, the earth, its seas and atmosphere (at least) are components. Oh and including the raindrops/snowflakes.
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The issue is, where did it come from? What system 'emerged' them?
On Jan 26, 2012, at 6:50 AM, Matthew West wrote: Snow and rain are just H2O in different states and in motion. Not sure what the issue is.
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I understand your view. How shall you handle rain and snow?
On Jan 26, 2012, at 6:09 AM, Matthew West wrote:
The main problem here is one of different people using terms differently. Hardly an ontological problem per se, but certainly a problem that causes confusion in developing ontologies.
Interestingly as a 4 dimensionalist I don’t recognise endurants at all, but I do recognise activities, physical objects, and participants. Under this world view all individuals (including activities, physical objects and participants) are spatiotemporal extents, and you discover that an activity consists of its participants, where a participant is the state of a physical object that participates in some activity. So I recognise the things you talk about. However, I would assign the term “system” to the physical object the participant is a state of.
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This turns out to be a key issue that confuses those who claim membership in the systems engineering community.
The endurant is a system configuration. However, a system is marked by what it does, not by what it is, and only exists while doing it. Consider rain and snow happening. The value of a system is marked by its perdurant, its stimulus:response behavior. Thereafter it retires to a configuration of end items.
There are other ways of looking at topic. Hopefully the rules of ontology will help un-confuse this. On Jan 26, 2012, at 3:16 AM, Nicola Guarino wrote:
I would say that a system is an object (an endurant, in Dolce's terms), while a system engineering activity is an event (a perdurant). The two categories are disjoint...
BTW, I was checking the Web site to see the community input and the synthesis so far (since I have been lost in the various emails), and for some reasons access is denied, differently from the other tracks...
Nicola
That will be an interesting discussion then, because I would not consider Systems Engineering (the activity) to be a System. I expect a system to be something that performs an activity – yet still exists when it is not performing that activity, not that is an activity.
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Furthermore, when we get to the notion that SE, the activity, qualifies as a system then when we try to discuss how to SE system engineering certainly great confusion will set in.
On Jan 25, 2012, at 8:57 AM, joseph simpson wrote:
Combining these two tracks will make things more difficult, in my opinion.
In my view the difficulty is associated with the elimination of the boundary between natural systems and industrial (or engineered) systems.
These are key distinctions that are important in this area.
Some of the main distinctions are outlined in "The Sciences of the Artificial," by Herbert A. Simon.
Other distinctions also exist, for example, production system and product system are clearly identifiable in an industrial system context.
In the context of natural systems, the concept of a production system and product system are less clear.
Further, the description of these tracks may benefit from the clear identification of what type of system and what type of model is being described and/or referenced.
Simply because an ontology is a model and a system at the same time, and the recursion used in the application of these concepts can quickly become confusing.
Have fun,
Joe
All,
Matthew West and Henson Graves came up with their joint Track 1&2 Mission Statement, along with Session Abstracts. We discussed this a bit, and would like the entire Ontology Summit 2012 community to see this, and comment.
We think this merger of the two Tracks is useful.
Thanks,
Leo and Nicola
-----Original Message-----
From: Matthew West [mailto:matthew.west@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 2:49 PM
To: 'Peter Yim'; 'Henson Graves'; 'Nicola Guarino'; Obrst, Leo J.
Subject: Track 1&2 Joint Mission and Session Abstracts
Dear all,
Peter just put me on the hook to come up with an overall mission statement
for Tracks 1&2, which it looks like we are going to merge (as long as Henson
is happy with that), and also an abstract for the first two sessions. Here
goes:
Track 1&2: Ontology for Big Systems & Systems Engineering
Mission
We aim to bring key challenges to light with large-scale systems and systems
of systems for ontology and identify where solutions exist, where the
problems require significant research, and where we can work towards
solutions as part of this summit. The areas to be considered include:
- working with and integrating the results of models using multiple
modeling languages
- the systems lifecycle and the issues of sharing data within and between
lifecycle stages
- the difference between requirements and the delivered system
- systems of systems vs systems,
- the nature of system components and the difference between these and the
parts installed,
- the connections between system components and what they carry,
- systems behaviour,
- federated systems both as a bit system, and as a solution to some of the
challenges,
- principles of how to construct good quality reusable models (ontologies)
- the management of ontologies of and for large systems and the challenges
in developing and maintaining them.
session-03: Ontology for Big Systems & Systems Engineering - I: The Systems
and Systems Engineering Problem Space
Abstract
In this session we want to look at the problems in big systems and systems
engineering where ontology has a role to play. The aim is to uncover the
various areas where challenges exist that the world of ontology can
contribute to.
session-04: Ontology for Big Systems & Systems Engineering - II: a response
to the problem space and setting out the working program for this Summit
Track
Abstract
In this session we will consider the output of the first session, and try to
identify:
- where there are solutions already available, if you know where to look,
- where the problems require significant research,
- where there is an opportunity to make useful progress within the
timescale of the ontology summit.
Regards
Matthew West
Information Junction
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