Sure, Mike. No problem. (01)
Thanks,
Leo (02)
>-----Original Message-----
>From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontolog-forum-
>bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of mbennett@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2015 8:46 PM
>To: [ontolog-forum]
>Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Endurantism and Perdurantism - Re: Some
>Comments on Descriptive vs. Prescriptive Ontologies
>
>Leo,
>
>This gets to the heart of something I have been trying (and mostly
>failing) to articulate.
>
>May I use this as a quote in slides / training materials? With attribution
>of course!
>
>Mike
>
>> One issue is that we can predicate (nearly) anything. Does that make it a
>> property or just a way of talking about/representing prospective
>> properties? Logic is good for talking about stuff, but is not necessarily
>> sufficient for telling us what that stuff is, whether it really exists in
>> the world, etc. [1] Once you have notions about that stuff, then you can
>> express it relatively unambiguously in logic. But reality (whatever it
>> is) precedes the formalism for describing/representing it, no?
>>
>> This is a point of disagreement, I think, between logicians and
>> ontologists (qua metaphysicians). The former think that
>> expressing/representing something is equivalent to it being so, and that
>> the "being so" doesn't matter that much. The latter think not.
>>
>> For ontological engineers, of course, it could be moot, since we have
>> application fish to fry. But to be better ontological engineers, I think
>> it is not moot. Especially if the best engineering ontologies approximate
>> (or intend to) the best scientific theories.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Leo
>>
>> [1] It's a good question to raise about what is or does provide that, but
>> of course that's not a question of logic. It's a question of something
>> else. Some would say: metaphysics.
>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontolog-forum-
>>>bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Matthew West
>>>Sent: Friday, April 03, 2015 12:55 PM
>>>To: '[ontolog-forum] '
>>>Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Endurantism and Perdurantism - Re: Some
>>>Comments on Descriptive vs. Prescriptive Ontologies
>>>
>>>Dear John,
>>>Yes of course, and I agree a logic that allows us to say things like this
>>> is
>>>a good thing, but...
>>>
>>>On 4/2/2015 3:40 PM, Matthew West wrote:
>>>> So how do you refer to a car without saying it is a car?
>>>
>>>Just say in English (or its translation to FOL):
>>>
>>> There is an x.
>>>[MW>] Just saying this means I have no idea at all what it is. It could
>>> be a
>>>pork pie.
>>>
>>>If you want to say more, add
>>>
>>> x has four wheels; x has a cabin that can hold from 1 to 8
>>> people; one of them is a driver; the driver can control
>>> the way x moves.
>>>[MW>] This hardly helps either. Instead of one type, I now count four (or
>>>more depending on exactly what you think type includes). Hardly progress.
>>>
>>>You can also, if you wish, say the following, but without assuming any
>>> fixed
>>>definition for the term 'car':
>>>
>>> x is car.
>>>
>>>The critical distinction is in the restrictions implied by the system of
>>>logic and ontology.
>>>[MW>] Right. Now this is closer to what I was expecting. That you retain
>>> the
>>>name, but drop the axioms when you translate between different
>>> ontologies.
>>>If you have a very tightly restricted logic, it's impossible to say
>>>"driverless car".
>>>[MW>] Again right, and this points to the problem of this approach, which
>>> is
>>>how you identify what you mean so that it still has the same membership
>>> (in
>>>the real world) across ontologies with different foundations.
>>>
>>>With a less restricted logic, you can say anything you like.
>>>If it causes a contradiction, you just delete one or more axioms
>>>-- in this case, the axiom that a moving car shall have a driver.
>>>[MW>] Sure. But there is also a problem that sometimes definitions just
>>> are
>>>inconsistent. So in the UK 3 wheeled cars were (at one time at least)
>>>classified as motorcycles with sidecars. I doubt many other countries
>>>defined car to exclude 3 wheelers.
>>>
>>>Regards
>>>
>>>Matthew West
>>>http://www.matthew-west.org.uk
>>>+44 750 338 5279
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>John
>>>
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