Leo, (01)
This gets to the heart of something I have been trying (and mostly
failing) to articulate. (02)
May I use this as a quote in slides / training materials? With attribution
of course! (03)
Mike (04)
> One issue is that we can predicate (nearly) anything. Does that make it a
> property or just a way of talking about/representing prospective
> properties? Logic is good for talking about stuff, but is not necessarily
> sufficient for telling us what that stuff is, whether it really exists in
> the world, etc. [1] Once you have notions about that stuff, then you can
> express it relatively unambiguously in logic. But reality (whatever it
> is) precedes the formalism for describing/representing it, no?
>
> This is a point of disagreement, I think, between logicians and
> ontologists (qua metaphysicians). The former think that
> expressing/representing something is equivalent to it being so, and that
> the "being so" doesn't matter that much. The latter think not.
>
> For ontological engineers, of course, it could be moot, since we have
> application fish to fry. But to be better ontological engineers, I think
> it is not moot. Especially if the best engineering ontologies approximate
> (or intend to) the best scientific theories.
>
> Thanks,
> Leo
>
> [1] It's a good question to raise about what is or does provide that, but
> of course that's not a question of logic. It's a question of something
> else. Some would say: metaphysics.
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontolog-forum-
>>bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Matthew West
>>Sent: Friday, April 03, 2015 12:55 PM
>>To: '[ontolog-forum] '
>>Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Endurantism and Perdurantism - Re: Some
>>Comments on Descriptive vs. Prescriptive Ontologies
>>
>>Dear John,
>>Yes of course, and I agree a logic that allows us to say things like this
>> is
>>a good thing, but...
>>
>>On 4/2/2015 3:40 PM, Matthew West wrote:
>>> So how do you refer to a car without saying it is a car?
>>
>>Just say in English (or its translation to FOL):
>>
>> There is an x.
>>[MW>] Just saying this means I have no idea at all what it is. It could
>> be a
>>pork pie.
>>
>>If you want to say more, add
>>
>> x has four wheels; x has a cabin that can hold from 1 to 8
>> people; one of them is a driver; the driver can control
>> the way x moves.
>>[MW>] This hardly helps either. Instead of one type, I now count four (or
>>more depending on exactly what you think type includes). Hardly progress.
>>
>>You can also, if you wish, say the following, but without assuming any
>> fixed
>>definition for the term 'car':
>>
>> x is car.
>>
>>The critical distinction is in the restrictions implied by the system of
>>logic and ontology.
>>[MW>] Right. Now this is closer to what I was expecting. That you retain
>> the
>>name, but drop the axioms when you translate between different
>> ontologies.
>>If you have a very tightly restricted logic, it's impossible to say
>>"driverless car".
>>[MW>] Again right, and this points to the problem of this approach, which
>> is
>>how you identify what you mean so that it still has the same membership
>> (in
>>the real world) across ontologies with different foundations.
>>
>>With a less restricted logic, you can say anything you like.
>>If it causes a contradiction, you just delete one or more axioms
>>-- in this case, the axiom that a moving car shall have a driver.
>>[MW>] Sure. But there is also a problem that sometimes definitions just
>> are
>>inconsistent. So in the UK 3 wheeled cars were (at one time at least)
>>classified as motorcycles with sidecars. I doubt many other countries
>>defined car to exclude 3 wheelers.
>>
>>Regards
>>
>>Matthew West
>>http://www.matthew-west.org.uk
>>+44 750 338 5279
>>
>>
>>
>>John
>>
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