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Re: [ontolog-forum] fitness of XML for ontology

To: ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: Kingsley Idehen <kidehen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2014 18:53:47 -0500
Message-id: <52F4208B.5090405@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
On 2/6/14 3:03 PM, Cory Casanave wrote:
> John,
> In many places you talk about XML for " formatting and annotating  documents 
>". However, its primary mainstream purpose seems to be for externalized/shared 
>structured data. While xHTML and HTML5 use a legal XML structure, very few 
>people probably care. XML is about data. I'm not defending it, its complexity 
>or its verbosity, just recognizing the way it is. JSON seems to be more about 
>data between coupled applications (A server and client built for that server). 
>Of course, all of this will change, but ignoring XML data would not seem to be 
>wise. It would seem a trivial matter to have an XML binding for any ontology 
>language or data format you may prefer, what is important is the semantics 
>behind the representation - not the angle brackets. I really don't care much 
>how people persist and exchange their data (or metadata) as long as the model 
>is sound.
>
> -Cory Casanave    (01)

Amen!    (02)

Kingsley
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ontolog-forum-
>> bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John F Sowa
>> Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 2:11 PM
>> To: ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] fitness of XML for ontology
>>
>> Paul, Duane, and Andrea,
>>
>> Before making specific comments, I want to emphasize three points:
>>
>>    1. XML is an excellent notation for formatting and annotating
>>       documents (online and printed).  It can be useful for other
>>       purposes.  But edicting it for everything is a bad idea.
>>
>>    2. Legacy systems became legacies because they served a useful
>>       purpose.  They should not be discarded lightly, and their
>>       replacements should support a graceful migration path.  For
>>       many purposes, the SW notations are an important legacy.
>>
>>    3. The analogy of computer notations with Roman numerals, decimal,
>>       and binary arithmetic applies at every level -- from teaching
>>       first grade up to and including the most advanced R & D.
>>
>> PT
>>> When you say W3C specs that use normative XML definitions are overly
>>> complex, defective, or useless, you apparently mean "for direct use by
>>> logic programmers"
>> No.  I meant that XML-based notations are overly complex for
>> *everything* outside their "sweet spot" -- point #1 above.
>>
>> PT
>>> it is trivial to down-translate XML to any leaner notation
>> Note point #3:  It is trivial to down-translate Roman numerals to decimal or
>> binary.  But it is *easier* to translate the better notations to Roman 
>numerals.
>> And note Duane's point below.
>>
>> PT
>>> the overall benefits of representing enterprise knowledge in XML far
>>> outweigh the cost of the extra markup.
>> No.  The Google R & D people know a lot about the data on the WWW and how
>> to process it efficiently.  Among them are R. V. Guha, who developed the
>> original RDF (for which Tim Bray defined the XML).
>>
>> Google's solution was Schema.org for the ontology, JSON for the data, RDFa 
>for
>> linking the data to the documents, a migration path *from* RDF & OWL, and a
>> suite of proprietary tools for doing the processing.
>>
>> I believe that the first four (Schema.org, JSON, RDFa, and a migration
>> path) are an important step in the right direction.  But there are excellent 
>tools
>> -- open source and commercial -- that can be used instead of or in addition 
>to
>> Google's.
>>
>> DN
>>> [Translating to and from XML] is not "trivial".  There are actually
>>> data fragments or structures that are not supported directly by Xml
>>> without some creative hacking.
>> Tim Bray, the original designer of RDF/XML, admitted that he could not
>> translate by hand a set of triples to syntactically correct RDF/XML.
>>
>> DN
>>> The people who wrote the specifications (Charles, Jon, Tim et al) are
>>> all very smart and gave XML a lot of serious thought.
>> I certainly agree.  It was an interesting experiment.  But they should have
>> promoted a design competition before attempting to standardize it.
>>
>> AW
>>> One can easily argue that any programming language, any DSL that needs
>>> to specify variables, SQL or SPARQL, or whatever, are not human-friendly.
>>> I agree but mainstream IT has certainly adopted arcane and complex
>> languages.
>>
>> I agree.  At one time in my life, I could read System/360 Hex dumps.
>> Some people could insert Hex patches in running systems.  And hackers (white
>> hat & black hat) are experts in such exploits.  But whenever possible, simple
>> and readable are better than arcane and complex.
>>
>> AW
>>> The issue comes down to tooling and training, and standards and
>>> conventions that the tooling and training can build against.
>> Exactly!  When Google and the W3C take different paths, I'm not betting on 
>the
>> W3C.  In many cases, endorsement by the W3C shows that Google's steps
>> *away from* the XML-based tools is a good idea.
>>
>> John
>>
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>    (03)


--     (04)

Regards,    (05)

Kingsley Idehen 
Founder & CEO
OpenLink Software
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