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Hmm "Something, such as a thought or conception, that potentially or actually exists in the mind as a product of mental activity" is an unproductive definition in my humble opinion.
Let's deconstruct.
This definition is merely saying an idea is "a product of mental activity" because "potentially or actually exists in the mind" simply restates the definition of "thought or concept" while its association with "thought or concept" covers the whole gamut of thinking, in its entirety! So it's merely saying an idea is a product of mental activity... how wrong (& useless) though!
The thought "my knee hurts" is clearly not an idea. There is no causality implicit or explicit due to that thought. Ok, what is a "bad idea" vs "good idea"? One of two things is meant by that. Either the stated causality is valid or not, or the outcome is desirable or not. An idea's premise (the 'if' part) is separately good or bad (its truth quotient), as that judgement is the rationale cited for the idea's causality being valid or not.
A specific housing style, as a meme, is interesting. Consistent with my earlier statements, I'd be saying sure it's a meme, one initiated by home builders to charge extra over some 'conventional' building style. But that's what happens, that's exactly how this meme passes from one member of a society to another - via the builders! Why would they develop a new "style" (which of course, is not a new "function" of the building) if not for additional income? So the new style becomes extant, it becomes conventional, the more it's passed around.
Now on to the god meme. How radioactive. You state that the god meme is the "popular conception of the god(s). That IS about whether higher entities exist and about their features" ... ok let's run with that. Let's think about how this meme came about.
Did individual persons develop this belief on their own, assigning reality to something they could neither see nor touch? If yes, then I'd agree that a meme is an emergent consensus of sorts. Or was it something they were TOLD by intellectuals seeking to create a caste of wizards, medicine-men, and priests? If so, then I would re-state that a meme is an idea originating from calculating persons who benefit from its adoption.
IOW, a meme is the premise of an "idea" whose outcome is pre-determined.
-jmc
On 12.04.2013 14:09, doug foxvog wrote:
On Fri, April 12, 2013 14:25, jmcclure@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxwrote:
... an idea is an insight about an outcome SHOULD a certain action be performed,
This is a non-standard definition of the concept "idea". The modern
American English definition is
"Something, such as a thought or conception, that potentially
or actually exists in the mind as a product of mental activity."
[American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language]
A Compact Oxford Dictionary definition is closer to your meaning:
"a thought or suggestion as to a possible course of action"
in that it refers to action.
However, the statements that memes are ideas have seemed to me
to refer to the American Heritage definition.
while a 'meme' is a statement of action derived-from/supportive-of a particualr outcome:
This property of 'meme' doesn't correlate well with a housing style
being a meme.
idea = action --implies--> result --yields--> outcome meme = outcome --implies--> action --yields--> result
At the risk of sounding like a conspiracist, the 'god' meme is a good example of a meme because it PROCEEDED FROM the desire of a cabal to cement power among themselves, as arbiters of the essence of life itself.
Gods have arisen in cultures around the world. The initial
ostensible purpose was to explain the hows and whys of
things that weren't immediately obvious. Why don't the sun and
moon fall from the sky. What makes them go around? How did
life (and various forms of it) originate? What happens after one
dies? How did [particular geological feature] originate?
Cabals have formed to achieve power by setting themselves
up as intermediaries between the people and the meme, gaining
control over the meme. However, i would guess that in the
majority of cases, those who currently are those intermediaries
including the top people in most religions truly believe in the meme.
Of course, many sects would be counter-examples.
The 'god' meme wasn't developed to further the social goal of good nutrition.
Sure. But it was used for that. Religions promote treating others fairly,
refraining from theft, murder, assault, lying to get people in trouble,
respecting elders, and other beneficial social goals. However, they also
promote their own welfare and the welfare of their leaders, and often
have harmful policies against those who support competing religions.
The 'god' meme is not at all about whether a higher entity exists, it is more about with whom that entity negotiates.
The *meme* would be the popular conception of the god(s). That IS
about whether higher entities exist and about their features. The
religion can have other features.
-- doug f
-john On 12.04.2013 08:39, John F Sowa wrote:
On
4/12/2013 10:14 AM, jmcclure@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx:
A very
well-known meme in the political sphere is that "tax cuts generate growth"
I would call that a slogan, as in "campaign slogan". As Ali
noted,
the only reason why it keeps getting bandied about is that the
Koch
Brothers fund hype machines (AKA think tanks) that promote it.
That was my point. The word 'meme' has no defining characteristics
that distinguish it from 'idea' or from terms that express an idea,such as 'slogan'.
John
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