On 1/20/13 1:21 PM, John F Sowa wrote:
> Kingsley and Sjir,
>
> KI
>> Virtuoso (our product) is a SPARQL and SQL hybrid. Guess what?
>> DB2 is also such a thing i.e., it has added that dimension.
>> Relational DBMS never meant SQL. That's the problem. Relational
>> Database Technology is broad. All Graph, RDBMS, Deductive, or
>> whatever moniker the market puts on them are a kind of Relational
>> Database.
> I completely agree with those points. That is why I keep going back
> to the work by the DB community on the conceptual schema proposals
> from the 1970s to the 1990s. They drew a clear distinction between
> the physical storage methods and the logical principles.
>
> KI
>> My difference with John is that he is unfairly undermining the current
>> state of art re. Webby Relational Database technology.
>>
>> Facebook, Google etc.. are leveraging the very things espoused by
>> the Semantic Web vision etc..
> I'm happy to give full credit for the hard work that has been done by
> many people in developing valuable resources and publishing them as LOD. (01)
Okay. (02)
>
> I also give full credit to Tim B-L for recognizing the importance of
> the earlier work and showing its importance for *his* vision of the
> Semantic Web. My major criticisms are directed at the DAML final
> report of 2005, which was a shadow of Tim's much broader vision in
> the original proposal of 2000. My major complaint is that they still
> have not begun to support or even discuss Tim's broader vision. (03)
Yes, but times have changed, you see it in schema.org, the Linked Open
Data cloud, and more pragmatic implementations of products based on the
somewhat tainted Semantic Web stack, as per your prime concern. (04)
Did they get it wrong in the beginning? Of course they did.
Did they mess up TimBL's vision? Of course they did, and that's still
happening today, but unlike the past, there's pushback from those of us
that have built and deployed real enterprise grade products. The world
view is no longer dominated by academia, there's more of a balance
emerging. (05)
All isn't lost, the vision variant you seek isn't lost, far from it :-) (06)
>
> SN
>> I agree with John that the SW community seems to prefer to ignore
>> what other people have done a long time ago in conceptual modeling.
>> That is why Ontology engineering, in my opinion and experience,
>> is today where computer programming was in the early sixties.
> I completely agree. Sjir was working on the conceptual schema
> proposals in the 1970s and '80s. They had very realistic proposals,
> whose main weakness was that the DB vendors didn't like them --
> primarily because interoperability would kill their monopolies. (07)
Yes, and that's why they are being obsoleted (or at least demoted re.,
position in DBMS technology value pyramid). Myopia is the virus that
killed off the OODBMS and ORDBMS initiatives. The same thing is
happening today re. SQL based RDBMS products due to the Web inflection.
>
> Tim B-L was well aware of that work. Unfortunately, the academics
> who took over the DAML project didn't want interoperability with
> the past for the same reasons as the commercial vendors: they
> wanted to promote their own pet ideas. (08)
Yes!! (09)
>
> At least the commercial vendors were more honest. They never
> claimed to have a higher goal than making a profit. (010)
Yep! (011)
>
> John
>
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> (012)
-- (013)
Regards, (014)
Kingsley Idehen
Founder & CEO
OpenLink Software
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