Pat
Which science are you referring to? And what notion of infinity?
great questions
you tell me
When discussing 'science' vs 'pseudoscience' vs 'engineering' as it often come up in threads
it would help to have some terms of reference (an ontology perhaps?)
Cosmology has given up, as I understand it, on the idea of the physical universe being infinite. Any science (or indeed engineering or common everyday commercial activity) which assumes that space and/or time is continuous (ie infinitely 'smooth', to put it in nonmathematical terms) does thereby buy into some notion of infinity, but the unlimitedness there is not in spatial or numerical extent, but rather in the degree to which one can go on making finer and finer distinctions, adding as it were more numbers after the decimal point. Still, its an infinity, just like the other infinities. Any time anyone says, I can do this, **and I could go on doing it as many times as I like** they are assuming a kind of infinity.
I have found fragmentary references to the concept of infinity in various domains
and wonder if ontology can help bring some cross refering of such fundamental concepts fundamental
to the advancement of science (provided we can still refer to 'science' in general)
I know there are those who will disagree with this last statement, perhaps appealing to Aristotle's notion of an incomplete totality.
Thats why we have discussion groups..
I actually find these finitist arguments fascinating, but (1) this forum is not the place to have them, and (2) for lay readers, it is important to emphasize that they are not widely taken seriously as any kind of alternative to the use of completed infinities in practical or scientific work, nor are they ever likely to be.
For the purpose of this forum, the argument infinity relates to ontology or Ontology
as a scientific tool, which can help the advancement of science and only in sofar it supports
the discussion of complexity and randomness, which I believe started
with the question, still wating to be addressed
are statements that cannot be translated to FOL
not logical (therefore non scientific, or pseudoscience)
or, are they logical according to non FOL
if anything above does not make sense, please just ignore it
cheers
P
Was it Avril working on it? Avril please enlighten us:
If I remember correctly, EMC2 formula ended with an implication that resulted in an assertion of infinity,
that however is not a subject that science has been able to define.neasure therefore
it results at false (go figure) or ignored
(apologies for the trivialization of the paraphrased argument, please correct the above if you know how
it goes)
I have seen papers published about the replication of random sets techniques and that makes me think (uhm> common sense would suggest it doesnt sound right)
re, intellectual freedom, maybe it should be 'ontological freedom' for the purpose of this forum
I understand that both science and religion try to provide some certainties so that people dont too astray in this world,
but the amount of misinformation that goes around is massive, even in universities
PDM
On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 4:47 PM, ravi sharma <drravisharma@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Paola The topic of thread is indirectly addressed in terms of populism adversely affecting publishing free scientific thought (as has been fashion mostly). Dominant scientists did not allow Einstein to get a research job for several years (imagine!), and Eddington ousted later Nobel Laureate Chandrasekhar (NASA honoured him and his work only posthumously - Chandra Observatory) from UK for his differing views on relativistic astrophysics, just to name a couple!
I am not sure I have found total freedom of _expression_ without taking responsibility. The baggage comes as a price of living together especially today as a part of the connected network. Freedom of thought is often internal, freedom of action on the thoughts such as writing them down has workplace, community, interest group related consequences as you point out. Several times I have faced career consequences as a result of expressing what is correct in my own view and even though I have suffered, time progression and consequences resulting from not following many of my suggestions have many times vindicated my position, damage is often irretrievable, as has been the example in science-history and history many times.
The media circus has scant regard for knowledge or inquisitive dialog but their only metric is viewership and also competition for being the first, for example. Fair reporting is a relative notion and one often has to sample multiple sources for taking view on an important issue. Even though we have supposedly some solutions in mind say for population control, we are sometimes in a minority to address them openly and so on.
Yet I am fortunate to live in a country most conducive to freedom and _expression_ of thought. It is becoming increasingly difficult for us even here to protect those who have expressed their own (right or wrong in relative sense) opinions. Civic Society values have still to improve and the process does not allow easy amendments. Majority opinion and wisdom are sometimes not in sync and mass hysteria still dominates.
I already feel guilty about lengthy expressions. Regards. Ravi
On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 11:58 AM, Paola Di Maio <paola.dimaio@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Ravi
I totally agree that intellectual freedom is key to any kind of progress/thinking
its true in the sciences, as well as in the arts and humanities
Having lived in many countries however, all of which claim to be 'democracies' (...)
I can say with certainty that in reality, from what I observe, there is little freedom from fear, even in the
most supposedly progressive and creative environments
If anything psychological fear (fear of judgement, fear of the sack, fear of
being told off by the boss, fear of death, karmic punishments, all sorts of things)
I speak with academics, bright intellectual minds in blessed free countries (like the UK) who
say they would not dare to write or say 'freely' what they think, that speak freely on certain issues only anonymously,
if the free speech points clear fingers to controversial issues, even when plain true
(had a few discussions about this topic recently, and I could not believe that I still come across people
who are afraid of saying what they think, so many)
They know they risk becoming the targed of intellectual retaliation
(there are ways that some people can blacklist free thinkers in many ways and keep them in the shadows, out of the public eyes/ears)
So free thinking, when done seriously, may require sacrificing a few other personal ambitions sometimes
Its not just countries, but also companies, organisations, etc
I am glad you found freedom, I can only hope for the same
PDM
On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 10:52 AM, ravi sharma <drravisharma@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
This shows that renaissance happen(s) whereever there is freedom of thought and in that environment progress and science thrive in a sustainable way. It has happened in cycles in different parts of world and we all enjoy the cumulative fruits of that knowledge. The same minds (persons) that do not produce visible research outputs but when they are transported to countires and regions that support freedom of thought, become often productive and even get Nobel Prize or other recognitions. It is allmostly about fearless pursuit and environments that support it.
Thanks. Ravi
On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 6:05 PM, Rob Freeman <lists@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 3:57 AM, John F. Sowa < sowa@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > RF> Greg Chaitin might have issue with that statement. > > No. He wouldn't object to that statement.
I suggest anyone interested read Chaitin in the original. He is a very
enjoyable read.
> ... the big question is why Europe
> took off so suddenly while the rest of the world stagnated.
That's a fair interpretation of Kuhn's statement.
> Crosby attributes the rapid development to the growth in
> methods and precision of measurement, and I'm sure that made
> an important contribution. Crosby mentions the development
> of European universities, starting with Paris and Oxford in
> the late 12th century and rapidly expanding throughout major
> cities in Europe during the 13th. But he doesn't go into
> any detail about the role of the universities or how they
> differed from the older centers of learning.
>
> The crucial feature of Plato's Academy and Aristotle's Lyceum
> was the highly stimulating debates. (Stylized hints of those
> debates can be found in Plato's dialogs.) The Greeks continued
> the debating for a few centuries, but it gradually lost much
> of the excitement of the early years. But when the European
> universities opened up, they renewed an active form of debate,
> which they called "disputation".
>
> Those debates could get very lively and even entertaining
> (in Latin, of course). As late as the 16th or 17th century,
> the English Court would go to Oxford or Cambridge for the
> graduation exercises. Queen Elizabeth I even served as the
> "magister" or moderator of the debate. King James was very
> fond of his hunting dogs, so one of the debates was on the
> topic of whether dogs can think. King James enjoyed it
> thoroughly and rooted for the dogs.
>
> The end of innovation comes when the powers that be feel
> threatened by the debate and start burning books and imposing
> censorship. Hegel said that the best thing that ever happened
> to Europe was the Protestant Reformation. He didn't think that
> the Protestant ideas were any better than the Catholic ones,
> but that the debate invigorated both sides and kept them
> from stagnating.
Like you, I don't think anyone knows the answer to this for sure. We
are lucky and things seem to keep moving, but there is no guarantee
that will continue.
-Rob
--
Thanks.
Ravi
(Dr. Ravi Sharma)
313 204 1740 Mobile
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