forgot to say the obvious:
I totally agree that intellectual freedom is key to any kind of progress/thinking
its true in the sciences, as well as in the arts and humanities
as well as nutrition, access to all knowledge, time, a suitable work environment , a pc, a connection etc
sometime we take these things for granted
PDM
Having lived in many countries however, all of which claim to be 'democracies' (...)
I can say with certainty that in reality, from what I observe, there is little freedom from fear, even in the
most supposedly progressive and creative environments
If anything psychological fear (fear of judgement, fear of the sack, fear of
being told off by the boss, fear of death, karmic punishments, all sorts of things)
I speak with academics, bright intellectual minds in blessed free countries (like the UK) who
say they would not dare to write or say 'freely' what they think, that speak freely on certain issues only anonymously,
if the free speech points clear fingers to controversial issues, even when plain true
(had a few discussions about this topic recently, and I could not believe that I still come across people
who are afraid of saying what they think, so many)
They know they risk becoming the targed of intellectual retaliation
(there are ways that some people can blacklist free thinkers in many ways and keep them in the shadows, out of the public eyes/ears)
So free thinking, when done seriously, may require sacrificing a few other personal ambitions sometimes
Its not just countries, but also companies, organisations, etc
I am glad you found freedom, I can only hope for the same
PDM
On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 10:52 AM, ravi sharma <drravisharma@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
This shows that renaissance happen(s) whereever there is freedom of thought and in that environment progress and science thrive in a sustainable way. It has happened in cycles in different parts of world and we all enjoy the cumulative fruits of that knowledge. The same minds (persons) that do not produce visible research outputs but when they are transported to countires and regions that support freedom of thought, become often productive and even get Nobel Prize or other recognitions. It is allmostly about fearless pursuit and environments that support it.
Thanks.
Ravi
On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 6:05 PM, Rob Freeman <lists@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 3:57 AM, John F. Sowa < sowa@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > RF> Greg Chaitin might have issue with that statement. >
> No. He wouldn't object to that statement.
I suggest anyone interested read Chaitin in the original. He is a very
enjoyable read.
> ... the big question is why Europe
> took off so suddenly while the rest of the world stagnated.
That's a fair interpretation of Kuhn's statement.
> Crosby attributes the rapid development to the growth in
> methods and precision of measurement, and I'm sure that made
> an important contribution. Crosby mentions the development
> of European universities, starting with Paris and Oxford in
> the late 12th century and rapidly expanding throughout major
> cities in Europe during the 13th. But he doesn't go into
> any detail about the role of the universities or how they
> differed from the older centers of learning.
>
> The crucial feature of Plato's Academy and Aristotle's Lyceum
> was the highly stimulating debates. (Stylized hints of those
> debates can be found in Plato's dialogs.) The Greeks continued
> the debating for a few centuries, but it gradually lost much
> of the excitement of the early years. But when the European
> universities opened up, they renewed an active form of debate,
> which they called "disputation".
>
> Those debates could get very lively and even entertaining
> (in Latin, of course). As late as the 16th or 17th century,
> the English Court would go to Oxford or Cambridge for the
> graduation exercises. Queen Elizabeth I even served as the
> "magister" or moderator of the debate. King James was very
> fond of his hunting dogs, so one of the debates was on the
> topic of whether dogs can think. King James enjoyed it
> thoroughly and rooted for the dogs.
>
> The end of innovation comes when the powers that be feel
> threatened by the debate and start burning books and imposing
> censorship. Hegel said that the best thing that ever happened
> to Europe was the Protestant Reformation. He didn't think that
> the Protestant ideas were any better than the Catholic ones,
> but that the debate invigorated both sides and kept them
> from stagnating.
Like you, I don't think anyone knows the answer to this for sure. We
are lucky and things seem to keep moving, but there is no guarantee
that will continue.
-Rob
--
Thanks.
Ravi
(Dr. Ravi Sharma)
313 204 1740 Mobile
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