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Re: [ontolog-forum] (OT) German

To: "[ontolog-forum] " <ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
From: "Sharma, Ravi" <Ravi.Sharma@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 00:45:05 -0700
Message-id: <D09FFCFB3952074082D4280BC24EAFA88A1194@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
John    (01)

Great links. Great understanding of languages. Many new things for me. 
It is amazing that I could read some words with meaning in PIE.
The satem mentioned is Shatam in Sanskrit meaning hundred, Deiw.. is Devam or 
force of nature such as fire, water, etc and Varuna is the water force or water 
Diety in Sanskrit also pronounced as Samskrit.
I will study further for understanding and knowledge.....    (02)

The point of all this in relation to our work is that for cross cultural 
communications if we can translate into English we are a bit better off but I 
have personally not been able to translate simple Sanskrit for English language 
audiences. For example the mis-translation of Yagna or yajna is Sacrifice but 
more meaningful is Transformation, Agni is fire but in several contexts it 
takes many pre and post fixes. Etc. CoPs have to be aware of these shortcomings 
and avoid trasliterations where the original concept itself is destroyed by 
translation.    (03)

Machine interpretation being one of the ultimate goals of ontology CoP, we can 
attempt to remove ambiguities in name and concept spaces. If I were to describe 
Mental processes, I would need to understand the relationship among 
consciousness (Sanskrit human Manas), English mind, brain, English thought, 
wandering nature of thought, the serene, peaceful or pleasure (Take your 
pick)seeking nature of mind, discerning or discriminatory power of mind called 
(Sanskrit) Buddhi, just to start the communicable vocabulary among different 
language speaking people. Decision support is like using the discriminatory 
power of mind, given all statistical analyses, to converge on likelihoods based 
on experience beyond data, to arrive at conclusions about human mental state as 
was the topic yesterday. Trauma and neuro aspects further complicate the normal 
(which is itself difficult) mental Health constructs?    (04)

With so much wisdom in out team, can we answer Marc and Saul's basic questions? 
What is a convergent approach that would make sense and provide them the It and 
other tools to study traumatic stress for the war torn minds. Perhaps a custom 
solution is to be developed for them like COTS as not following all standards 
but good efficient solution as in ERP systems. But it will also be an expert 
system with AI neural and other attributes and able to fit the requirements of 
most prevalent of mental abnormalities from stressful war situations.    (05)

One more thought as an opinion is that VA and DoD Medical budgets ought to 
include these types of treatment and development costs as part of total costs 
of ownerships of our missions such as wars, as family budgets have to account 
for child support due to traumatic experiences in families! Are we doing enough 
to support technologies and CoPs that are helpful or do we even know the 
resource estimates?    (06)

Thanks.    (07)

Ravi    (08)

(Dr. Ravi Sharma) Senior Enterprise Architect    (09)

Vangent, Inc. Technical Excellence Center (TEC)    (010)

8618 Westwood Center Drive, Suite 310, Vienna VA 22182
(o) 703-827-0638, (c) 3132041740 www.vangent.com    (011)



-----Original Message-----
From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John F. Sowa
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 10:14 PM
To: [ontolog-forum]
Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] (OT) German    (012)

RS> Sanskrit is the first spoken and documented written language.
 > Hopefully Greek and Latin are derivatives of the ancient
 > Indo-European Sanskrit language.
 >
 > I know for sure that German, Russian are derived from roots of
 > Sanskrit language.    (013)

Instead of saying that all those languages are derived from
Sanskrit, it is more accurate to say that all of them,
including Sanskrit, are derived from a more ancient language,
which is usually called Proto-Indo-European (PIE).    (014)

The estimated date for PIE is about 4000 to 6000 BC, probably
somewhere south-east of the Black Sea.  The oldest known version
of PIE is Hittite, which is recorded in cuneiform from about
1800 BC.  It split off much earlier than the other branches
of PIE and diverges the most from them.    (015)

Greek split off later than Hittite.  The Greek word for 100 is
hekton, which differs from the two major groups, distinguished
by an initial K or S for 100:    (016)

    Centum:  the western group includes the Latin, Celtic, and
    Germanic languages.  In the Germanic branch, the initial K
    became an H, but that is a later development from the initial
    H of Greek.  In the later Romance languages, the K sound in
    'centum' became a CH sound in Italian and an S sound in
    most of the others.    (017)

    Satem:  the eastern group probably had an initial K, which
    changed to S before they split into the Indo-Iranian and
    Balto-Slavic groups.    (018)

Two other Indo-European languages, whose relationships to the
others are unclear, include Albanian and Armenian.    (019)

And by the way, the hypothetical source for 'centum' or 'satem'
was probably 10 times 10 or 'dekemdekem', which was later
simplified to 'kendem' before becoming 'centum' or 'satem'.    (020)

In Europe, the non-Indo-European languages include two members
of the Finno-Ugric group (Finnish and Hungarian) and Basque,
which has no known relationship to any other language.  Turkish
is a member of the Uralic group, which includes many languages
in central Asia.    (021)

For some links to other resources, see    (022)

    http://web.uvic.ca/geru/471/protoindoeuropean.htm
    Proto-Indo-European links    (023)

One of them is a discussion by the linguist Geoffrey Sampson,
who included a translation of a Sanskrit story to a hypothetical
version of PIE.  (Copy below)    (024)

John Sowa
_________________________________________________________________    (025)

Source:  http://www.grsampson.net/Q_PIE.html    (026)

English translation of the Sanskrit:    (027)

     Once there was a king. He was childless. The king wanted a son.    (028)

     He asked his priest: "May a son be born to me!"    (029)

     The priest said to the king: "Pray to the god Varuna".    (030)

     The king approached the god Varuna to pray now to the god.    (031)

     "Hear me, father Varuna!"    (032)

     The god Varuna came down from heaven.    (033)

     "What do you want?" "I want a son."    (034)

     "Let this be so", said the bright god Varuna.    (035)

     The king's lady bore a son.    (036)

Hypothetical PIE translation:    (037)

     To recs hest. So nputlos hest. So recs shnum welt.    (038)

     S tso cceutrm prcscet: "Shnus moi jnhyotaam!"    (039)

     So cceuter tom rejm weuqet: "Ihgeswo deiwm Wrunom".    (040)

     So recs deiwm Werunom hpo-sesore nu deiwm ihgeto.    (041)

     "Clutt moi, phter Werune!"    (042)

     Deiws Wrunos kmta diws gweht.    (043)

     "Qd welsi?" "Wlmi shnum."    (044)

     "Td hstu", wuqet louks deiwos Werunos.    (045)

     Reejs ptnih shnum gegonhe.    (046)

Note the word 'recs', which is related to the Latin 'rex' and
the Indian 'rajah'.  The verb 'hest' has a past tense marker
in front and the ending -t for third-person singular.  Other
similarities are left as an exercise for the reader.    (047)

John Sowa    (048)



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