This seems to me like and old, unresolved issue coming up again.
I think part of this problem is the use of the word 'ontology' with different meanings
From my cursory analysis of the correspondence, Azamat use of the word ontology here is 'ordered representation schema of what exists', and in particular, having read some his works, he is referring to the organized and systematic linguistic representation of such schema, that takes into account existing langage and ontology theories, and extends them to some extent
By contrast, the proponent os 'universal ontology does not exist' may refer to a 'one size fits all model' which in the light of various analyses, cannot exist, in the same sense that one view of reality is likely never to be complete/truthful
Soi basically from where I stand folks, the two statements that you are making are not
diametrically opposed, there is a fundamental misunderstanding about what is being said
that is causing it.
I hope when Azamat work is complete and published, indeed it might be easier to understand what UFO is (from what I understand a logical schema of language, much needed on the semantic web imho). To make it work, to crash test it, and to apply it usefully would be the next challenge, which will benefit from critical views.
Lets talk about it - look forward to be seeing this silly confrontation of views resolved at a higher level of representation (isnt this what ontology is also about?)
Cheers
PDM
On 7/22/07, Azamat <abdoul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Patrick Durusau wrote: I am sure Azamat will formulate his own response but
I can answer for
myself since I share the opinion that there is no "universal ontology."
Dear Patrick,
Let me just ensure you that there is a ''universal ontology'', '' global
ontology'', '' master ontology'', or '' standard ontology'', as a
comprehensive consistent world model.
Otherwise, no Semantic Web, no artificial intelligent systems, etc.
Azamat
http://www.eis.com.cy
Patrick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick Durusau" <patrick@xxxxxxxxxxx
>
To: "[ontolog-forum]" <ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2007 12:23 AM
Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Terminology Question concerning Web
Architecture and LinkedData
> Randall,
>
> Randall R Schulz wrote:
>> On Saturday 21 July 2007 12:59, Azamat wrote:
>>
>>> Rarely have i seen such obtusness. Pat has said many interesting
>>> things, but this statement reflects the whole point of the Semantic
>>> Web. No Real Meanings, no Semantic Web, or no Universal Ontology,
>>> no Intelligent Web. That's it.
>>>
>>> Azamat
>>>
>>
>> If this is the statement it seems to be, namely one of complete
>> pessimism about the entire Semantic Web endeavor (and apparently, any
>> form of computational intelligence), what motivates your participation
>> in this forum?
>>
>>
> I am sure Azamat will formulate his own response but I can answer for
> myself since I share the opinion that there is no "universal ontology."
>
> First, I don't think belief in a universal ontology has anything to do
> with "computational intelligence." It certainly is irrelevant to any
> claims of human intelligence, the possessors of which have been
> demonstrated to believe in any number of ontologies, perhaps even
> contradictory ones.
>
> Second, and more pragmatically, if a client finds that use of "Semantic
> Web" technologies provides a useful result for whatever purpose they
> have in mind, what is their (or my) belief in a universal ontology have
> to do with it? Or the connection of such a universal ontology to "real"
> meaning? Interesting questions for a coffee shop discussion but has
> little to do with the results that motivate clients to pay for services.
>
> I say all that because the topic maps community has spent years (not as
> many as the ontology community) hand wringing over the "big" issues when
> the real questions that needed answering were what result does the use
> of topic maps enable that isn't otherwise available and how does than
> answer the needs of user X?
>
> Granted, I take that position because I think meaning is in the eyes of
> the user (cf. reader response criticism and Stanley Fish) but I also
> suspect that pragmatically speaking, the question that any semantic
> technology has to answer is of what use is it to the user in question?
> It's formal correctness and answering the "big" questions won't save a
> technology that has no real payoff for users.
>
> I participate because I wanted to learn the terminology and thinking
> that underlies current ontology efforts. Whether those efforts are
> "true" in some absolute sense of the world isn't a question that I worry
> about. How those efforts may or may not have benefits for users,
> however, is a question that concerns me.
>
> Hope you are having a great day!
>
> Patrick
>
>> Randall Schulz
>>
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>
> --
> Patrick Durusau
> patrick@xxxxxxxxxxx
> Chair, V1 - US TAG to JTC 1/SC 34
> Acting Convener, JTC 1/SC 34/WG 3 (Topic Maps)
> Co-Editor, ISO/IEC 13250-1, 13250-5 (Topic Maps)
> Co-Editor, OpenDocument Format (OASIS, ISO/IEC 26300)
>
>
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Paola Di Maio
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