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Re: [sio-dev] Fwd: [ontolog-forum] Sharing and Integrating Ontologies

To: "[sio-dev] discussion" <sio-dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
From: kenb <kenb@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 16:57:11 -0400 (EDT)
Message-id: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1004101633450.4500@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
See my comments below.    (01)

On Sat, 10 Apr 2010, Cameron Ross wrote:    (02)

> 
> 
> On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 3:04 PM, Ron Wheeler <rwheeler@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
>       On 10/04/2010 2:29 PM, Peter Yim wrote:
>       >> [RonW] Horribly bureaucratic process. No way this will be able
>       >> to get any following among application developers. ...
>       >>
>       > [ppy]  I guess it depends on the kind of ontology submission
>       one has in mind?
>       >
>       > I trust those who were involved in the earlier discussion
>       (either OOR
>       > or SIO) were thinking of artifacts like OpenCYC, PSL, BFO,
>       COSMO,
>       > DOLCE, SUMO and the like (and to weed out the counter examples
>       that
>       > Barry Smith usually cites.)
>       >
>       > ISO is a terribly bureaucratic process too!
>       >
>       > Once again, if the conversation (like this one) addresses the
>       broader
>       > scope of OOR (and not just SIO implementation issues, please
>       use the
>       > [oor-forum] list (rather than [sio-dev]) for the discussion. I
>       am
>       > going to forward this thread to [oor-forum], kindly pick it up
>       from
>       >
> 
> This is strictly SIO implementation not ontology.
> It is in reference to the Use Cases that are being suggested as
> relevent
> to the SIO project.
> It belongs here.
> 
> 
> This is an area of overlap between OOR and SIO.  The Uses Cases
> we've been referring to are for OOR, but it is clearly SIO as well.
>  
>       > there.
>       >
>       > ... by the way, Ron, why 'application developers' rather than
>       > 'ontology developers' (isn't the latter what OOR is for)?
>       >
>       >
> Building ontologies  is a fine thing but I am coming at the discussion
> from the point of view of someone who would actually use ontologies to
> build something - an application that incorporates a set of ontologies
> to provide the logic with some set of facts.
> If the OOR is only to support ontology developers, then it is at best
> an
> academic exercise and the real ontology work will move elsewhere.
> It has to help application developers find the ontologies that they
> need
> and to understand which ones can be used together.
> 
> This is the point I've been trying to make regarding use cases other
> than those related to CRUDing ontologies.  That is, the perspective
> of one who will use the OOR as a source of ontologies for actual
> applications.  As Peter has pointed out, the actor  for these uses
> cases will be the Application Developer and NOT the Ontology
> Developer.  So to restate my question once again, should the 
> OOR initiative create use cases for the Application Developer?    (03)

Matt Hettinger made a similar plea at the recent OOR Use Cases meeting. 
See http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ConferenceCall_2010_04_01
Matt said that he will be proposing some use cases.    (04)

> Maybe Ontology Developer use cases belong with OOR and
> Application Developer use cases belong with SIO?     (05)

I think that application-oriented use cases are appropriate for the OOR.
If you or anyone else has some suggestions for such use cases, please post 
them to the oor mailing list.    (06)

-- Ken    (07)

>
>       > Thanks&  regards.  =ppy
>       > --
>       >
>       >
>       > On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 11:02 AM, Ron Wheeler
>       > <rwheeler@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>  wrote:
>       >
>       >> On 09/04/2010 2:52 PM, kenb wrote:
>       >>
>       >>> On Tue, 6 Apr 2010, Cameron Ross wrote:
>       >>>
>       >>>
>       >>>
>       >>>> Thanks Todd.
>       >>>>
>       >>>> The use cases thus far describe Create, Retrieve, Update and
>       Delete
>       >>>> (CRUD) functionality that is typical of a repository.  I'm
>       looking for
>       >>>> use cases that correspond to the eventual end uses of
>       onologies
>       >>>> residing within the repository.  For example, the trigger
>       for the
>       >>>> "Find Ontology" use case is "Need for an ontology".  What
>       are the use
>       >>>> cases that motivate the need for an ontology.  Although such
>       use cases
>       >>>> may not be required for the system level implementation of
>       the
>       >>>> repository, I believe they are essential to develop an
>       understanding
>       >>>> of the types of problems that an ontology repository will
>       help to solve.
>       >>>>
>       >>>> I guess I'm struggling to understand the value of ontology
>       >>>> repositories beyond their ability to facilitate the
>       development and
>       >>>> sharing of ontologies.  If there isn't any value beyond
>       this, then
>       >>>> what is the need for an "online" repository.  Wouldn't a
>       system that
>       >>>> allows for the sharing and collaborative development of
>       static
>       >>>> ontology artifacs (e.g. files) suffice?  SourceForge comes
>       to mind.
>       >>>>
>       >>>>
>       >>> The OOR use cases consider workflows/processes such as
>       reviewing, mapping,
>       >>> composing, etc.  The use cases also distinguish the roles
>       (actors) that
>       >>> are involved in these processes. IMHO, these go significantly
>       beyond CRUD
>       >>> functionality.
>       >>>
>       >>>
>       >>>
>       >>>> Perhaps this a naive view, or it has been discussed
>       previously.  If
>       >>>> so, some links would be much appreciated.
>       >>>>
>       >>>>
>       >>> See the OOR use case descriptions at
>       >>>
>       http://ontolog.cim3.net/file/work/OOR/OOR-Use-Cases/oor-usecase.xml
>       and
>       >>>
>       >>>
>       >> Horribly bureaucratic process. No way this will be able to get
>       any
>       >> following among application developers.
>       >> The only criteria for submitting an ontology to a central
>       repository
>       >> should be some claim on the namespace.
>       >> Our company owns "com.artifact-software" and I should be able
>       to submit
>       >> any ontology that I want as long as I supply the minimal
>       metadata to
>       >> permit the OOR to index it.
>       >> If people like the license that I give and can merge the
>       ontology with
>       >> the rest of their set, then they will use it.
>       >> Adding a bunch of gatekeepers is only going to make the
>       marketplace go
>       >> elsewhere.
>       >>
>       >>> the main OOR use cases page at
>       >>>
>       http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?OpenOntologyRepository_UseCases
>       >>>
>       >>> -- Ken
>       >>>
>       >>>
>       >>>
>       >>>> Cameron.
>       >>>>
>       >>>>
>       >>>> Kojeware Corporation
>       >>>>
>       >>>> On Apr 6, 2010, at 12:07 PM, Todd J
>       Schneider<todd.schneider@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>       >>>>
>       >>>>
>       >>>>> wrote:
>       >>>>>
>       >>>>>
>       >>>>
>       >>>>> Ron, Cameron,
>       >>>>>
>       >>>>> The OOR team does have high-level use cases addressing
>       different
>       >>>>> roles of OOR users. Among them are Developer and [general]
>       User.
>       >>>>>
>       >>>>> See
>       >>>>> http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?
>       >>>>> OpenOntologyRepository_UseCases
>       >>>>>
>       >>>>> Feel free to extend or add to the existing use cases.
>       >>>>>
>       >>>>> Todd
>       >>>>>
>       >>>>>
>       >>>>>
>       >>>>> From:
>       >>>>> Ron Wheeler<rwheeler@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>       >>>>> To:
>       >>>>> "[sio-dev] discussion"<sio-dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>       >>>>> Date:
>       >>>>> 04/06/2010 10:54 AM
>       >>>>> Subject:
>       >>>>> Re: [sio-dev] Fwd: [ontolog-forum] Sharing and  Integrating
>       >>>>> Ontologies
>       >>>>> Sent by:
>       >>>>> sio-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>       >>>>>
>       >>>>>
>       >>>>>
>       >>>>> Does anyone have a written use case for what an ontologist
>       would
>       >>>>> want us
>       >>>>> to produce?
>       >>>>> What are the problems he/she should be trying to solve when
>       they
>       >>>>> contemplate selecting one of our artifacts?
>       >>>>> How will our artifacts interface with the rest of the
>       solutions set?
>       >>>>>
>       >>>>> Are we in a position to write the introductory chapter of
>       the user
>       >>>>> documentation?
>       >>>>>
>       >>>>> Do we have a place on the wiki where these ideas can be
>       developed?
>       >>>>>
>       >>>>>
>       >>>>> Ron
>       >>>>>
>       >>>>>
>       >>>>> Rick Murphy wrote:
>       >>>>>
>       >>>>>
>       >>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 7:32 AM, John F.
>       Sowa<sowa@xxxxxxxxxxx
>       >>>>>>> <mailto:sowa@xxxxxxxxxxx>>    wrote:
>       >>>>>>>
>       >>>>>>>
>       >>>>>>>
>       >>>>>>
>       >>>>>>
>       >>>>>>>> John Bateman and his group at Bremen put together a
>       variety of free
>       >>>>>>>> and open source tools and integrated them with their
>       methodology.
>       >>>>>>>> One of the most important is HeTS (Heterogeneous Tool
>       System),
>       >>>>>>>> which can translate from one logic to another while
>       preserving
>       >>>>>>>> the semantics:
>       >>>>>>>>
>       >>>>>>>>
>       >>>>>>>
>       >>>>>> I spent most of last Winter investigating HETs, CASL,
>       Haskell and
>       >>>>>> Isabelle. At this point I have a modest capacity to engage
>       in
>       >>>>>> modeling
>       >>>>>> and coding with this tool suite.
>       >>>>>>
>       >>>>>> I look forward to the discussion !
>       >>>>>>
>       >>>>>> --
>       >>>>>>
>       >>>>>> Rick
>       >>>>>>
>       >>>>>>
>       >>>>>>
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> 
> 
> 
> --
> Kojeware Corporation
> 
>    (08)

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