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Re: [ontolog-forum] fitness of XML for ontology

To: "[ontolog-forum]" <ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
From: Paul Tyson <phtyson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2014 19:50:24 -0600
Message-id: <1391997024.5962.118.camel@tristan>
Hi Kingsley,    (01)

On Sun, 2014-02-09 at 14:19 -0500, Kingsley Idehen wrote:
> On 2/8/14 7:51 PM, Paul Tyson wrote:
> > Hi Kingsley,
> >
> > On Sat, 2014-02-08 at 13:19 -0500, Kingsley Idehen wrote:
> >> On 2/8/14 12:32 AM, Paul Tyson wrote:
> >>> "-- It is a data base language for text.
> >> That's the crux of the matter! A database is a document comprised of
> >> structured data. It isn't a database management system i.e., an
> >> application that provides services such as: storage, indexing,
> >> declarative query access etc..
> > I suppose you meant to say in the 2nd sentence: "An XML instance
> > is ...", followed by "It isn't a database management system....".
> 
> I am saying that a database is a kind of document.    (02)

At first that's what I thought you meant, but since I generally think of
documents as having boundedness, identity, and some degree of
persistence or stability, I wasn't prepared to accept your
characterization of a database "as a document". But after dereferencing
the pronouns correctly, and with your further explanations, I see we are
in agreement.    (03)

Regards,
--Paul    (04)

> 
> I am also saying that  a database management system is an application 
> that manage databases.
> 
> Based on the above, XML based markup can be used to create databases 
> i.e., documents comprised of structured data marked up using an XML 
> based notation.
> 
> >
> > True. Goldfarb wasn't saying that, and neither would I.
> 
> I wasn't insinuating that you were. I was simply trying to isolate the 
> database and database management system confusion that tends to permeate 
> these kinds of conversations/debates about XML utility.
> 
> >> XML is fine as mechanism for marking up structured data in a document.
> >> The utility of this process isn't optimal if the endeavor requires
> >> entity relationships and relation semantics to be discernible and
> >> comprehensible to human authors and readers.
> > You lost me here.
> 
> See my comments above.
> 
> >   If you have the identifiers of 2 entities and a
> > relation between them, there are any number of ways you can put the
> > identifiers into a character stream that can be deciphered to indicate
> > the relationship.
> 
> Yes, I am not disputing that.
> 
> >   An XML notation would be the most generally useful,
> > but, as has been repeatedly noted, may not be preferred for ephemeral
> > applications.
> 
> Now you've lost me. All I am saying is that you can use a variety of 
> languages (including those that only have XML based notations) to create 
> databases i.e., documents comprised of structured content in the form of 
> statements that represent entity relations.
> >
> > I've been trying to avoid any suggestion that XML "has semantics" in and
> > of itself.
> 
> An XML based language (e.g. RDF/XML) can be a notation used to represent 
> entity relations for a given language (system of signs, syntax, and 
> semantics).
> 
> >   On the contrary, by doing little it enables much, as
> > illustrated by Goldfarb's list of characteristics and capabilities.
> 
> Not disputing Goldfarb's points :-)
> 
> Links:
> 
> [1] http://bit.ly/1fVZDi5 -- Language
> [2] http://bit.ly/1o7pcRb -- Semantics
> [3] http://bit.ly/1ievivx -- Database .
> 
> 
> Kingsley
> >
> > Regards,
> > --Paul
> >
> >   
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> 
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