PatH,
How would you define/describe a "context"? for an ontology? A database?
an application? (01)
PathC (02)
Patrick Cassidy
MICRA Inc.
cassidy@xxxxxxxxx
1-908-561-3416 (03)
-----Original Message-----
From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Pat Hayes
Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2013 12:19 AM
To: [ontolog-forum] ; Hans Polzer
Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Amazon vs. IBM: Big Blue meets match in battle
for the cloud (04)
On Jul 27, 2013, at 4:49 PM, Hans Polzer wrote: (05)
> Until you start including a description of the context(s) within which the
representation of entities applies, you won't get very far. Every legacy
system has an assumed context and scope for what it does, and a specific
perspective on that context, and specific frames of reference used to
describe the relevant "world" from its perspective. That's why we have a
"tangled mess".
>
> By the way, all systems are legacy systems - including the one you are
designing this moment (from the perspective of the designer of the next
system) - and no one will ever get the resources to redesign and reimplement
all systems that do everything for everyone's purposes: live with it!
Nothing operationally useful gets built without constrained scope, time, and
resources, which limits the n-space of context ranges it can practically
address.
>
> All attempts to define entities and relations in a context free/neutral
manner as a solution to interoperability are doomed to have limited validity
(i.e., to those systems/applications that share their implicit context/scope
assumptions). Only when we start being explicit about our context and scope
assumptions within which we are describing entities and relationships will
we be able to semi-reliably share meaning between arbitrary systems. So the
first order of business should be an ontology for describing context and
scope assumptions. (06)
And the trouble with *that* idea is, there are as many distinct notions of
"context" as there are people saying that we need to describe contexts. (07)
Pat (08)
>
> Hans
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Kingsley
> Idehen
> Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2013 12:35 PM
> To: ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Amazon vs. IBM: Big Blue meets match in
> battle for the cloud
>
> On 7/27/13 10:06 AM, deddy wrote:
>> Michael -
>>
>>> your example becomes more and more specific and challenging :-) Yes,
>>> if all you have is the code, you are in trouble and SW technologies
>>> are not a magic bullet for solving it.
>>>
>> Welcome to the world of legacy systems.
>
> By "legacy systems" you mean a subjective tangled mess rife with
contextual fluidity?
>
>>
>> I hope against hope that somewhere in the SW stack of tools there
>> just might be something to help with understanding legacy systems.
>
> Yes, they help since "meaning" is critical to "understanding" anything.
> Thus, you can map out a tangled mess, rife with contextual fluidity, by
decomposing the aforementioned mess into:
>
> 1. entities
> 2. entity relationships
> 3. entity relationship roles
> 4. entity relations .
>
> You can achieve the above with computer and human oriented languages.
>>
>> It's a very SMALL hope.
>
> I have big hopes, the challenge lies in getting everyone to look at the
task like they would a jigsaw puzzle game where every resource is a
puzzle-piece, as exemplified by the World Wide Web.
>
>>
>> What I do see is SW creating yet another tangled layer of undocumented,
poorly understood systems.
>
> Of course not.
>
>>
>>
>> I've been attending monthly MIT SW meetings for 4+ years. Once, by
>> chance, I did catch TBL himself saying to the audience that "Semantic
>> Web" was a clever marketing label, but that in reality, "linked data"
would be a more appropriate description since there really isn't anything
special about semantics in the SW.
>
> Hmm..
>
> I think TimBL was trying to unravel the obvious fact that the Web he
> envisioned was a read-write global graph comprised of:
>
> 1. entities -- things
> 2. entity relationships -- statements describing things 3. entity
> roles -- relationship roles e.g., subject, predicate, and object 4.
> entity relations -- sets of relationships scoped to common predicates
> 5. relation semantics -- exploitation of First-order logic as the
> foundation for relation semantics.
>
> In the context of the World Wide Web, HTTP URIs would serve as the
> denotation (naming) mechanism for the items above.
>
> The World Wide Web was always about a global entity relationship graph
> [1] where humans and machines would be able to comprehend entity
> relationship semantics [2]. Basically, the fidelity or entity
> relationship semantics of this global entity relationship graph would
> evolve (continuously) over time via crowd-sourcing.
>
>
>>
>>
>> As you may have noticed, my passion is for a process—tool assisted,
>> but requiring human knowledge at the beginnings —to extract & make formal
the MENSA_FL --> MEssage Notify Stop Action Flag --> "a collection of
dunning flags"
>> process.
>
> We (certainly I) just need to find the right way to articulate that we
> (You and I) are on the same page. At the top of this response, what I
> outlined are steps that fall into your "beginnings" view point i.e.,
> that domain experts and systems analysts MUST be key participants in
> the process. That's totally different from the typical pattern where
> programmers (short on domain expertise and industry experience)
> generally make things up as they experiment and play with the latest
> and greatest programming language, where the real focus is parsing
> capabilities, language idioms, and data representation formats etc..
>
> To conclude, we just need to align our own entity relationship
> semantics as we discuss these matters, en route to common
> understanding :-)
>
> Links:
>
> [1] http://bit.ly/10Y9FL1 -- Proof that Relationship Semantics &
> Linked Data were part of original World Wide Web design and proposal
> [2] http://bit.ly/16EVFVG -- Illustrating the loose-coupling of
> Identifiers (e.g., URIs), Structured Data, and Logic exemplified by
> Web Architecture [3] http://slidesha.re/18CtxGK -- Blogic Presentation
> by Pat Hayes.
>
>
> Kingsley
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Does "dunning" have a German meaning? It means the process to send
>> someone a series of (increasingly firm) bills to collect a debt.
>> R.G. Dun was an early (1840s) credit rating business here in the States &
eventually merged to become Dun & Bradstreet, which survives to this day.
>>
>> ______________________
>> David Eddy
>> Babson Park, MA
>> 781-455-0949
>>
>>
>>> -------Original Message-------
>>> From: Michael Brunnbauer <brunni@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: [ontolog-forum] <ontolog-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Amazon vs. IBM: Big Blue meets match
>>> in battle for the cloud
>>> Sent: 2013-07-27 08:50
>>>
>>>
>>> Hello David,
>>>
>>> your example becomes more and more specific and challenging :-)
>>> Yes, if all you have is the code, you are in trouble and SW
>>> technologies are not a magic bullet for solving it.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Michael Brunnbauer
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 10:44:17AM -0400, David Eddy wrote:
>>>> Michael -
>>>>
>>>> On Jul 26, 2013, at 9:13 AM, Michael Brunnbauer wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> distributed in the heads of two experts for one or the other system.
>>>>
>>>> Let us assume the experts are not readily available...
>>>>
>>>> - I'm too green to formulate a coherent question
>>>>
>>>> - experts do not like to be pestered by clueless newbie questions
>>>>
>>>> - experts are simply too busy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The "knowledge" that has trickled down to me is as most technical
>>>> documentation severely stripped of useful context & content.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> once you have discovered that M0760 and MENSA-FL are the same
>>>>
>>>> That's the hard part... how are M0760 & MENSA-FL discovered to be the
same?
>>>>
>>>> Remember, we're looking at a data structure with 1700 data elements
>>>> & analysts/programmers are pawing over
>> this stuff on a regular basis.
>>>>
>>>> In theory there should be documentation... but situations like this
>>>> typically come down to: "the code is the
>> documentation."
>>>>
>>>> - David
>>>>
>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>> --
>>> ++ Michael Brunnbauer
>>> ++ netEstate GmbH
>>> ++ Geisenhausener Straße 11a
>>> ++ 81379 München
>>> ++ Tel +49 89 32 19 77 80
>>> ++ Fax +49 89 32 19 77 89
>>> ++ E-Mail brunni@xxxxxxxxxxxx
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>>> ++
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>
>
> --
>
> Regards,
>
> Kingsley Idehen
> Founder & CEO
> OpenLink Software
> Company Web: http://www.openlinksw.com Personal Weblog:
> http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehen
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