Re: [ontolog-forum] Grover Models

["John McClure" <jmcclure@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Hi Doug -    (01)

>> Hi Doug, what is PersonZ all about? thanks
>I interpreted [[Sister:Person:X]] for [[Person:X]]
>as possibly being intended to mean that there exists
>a sister for X and X is a person.    (02)

<Sister:Person:X> is meant to be the name of a resource about Person:X's
role as a Sister. The 'for' predicate identifies who the resource is
'for' -- it might be better said 'about'. Would that be clearer? So it would
be <Sister:Person:X> about <Person:X>, a triple which *not incidentally* can
be derived from the name of the resource.    (03)

Also, I started a comparative listing of the triples, attached (which I
stopped when I hit PersonZ in your markup). Thanks so very much for your
efforts to cast my notation into CycL. Another way to have framed the
original question was, is there a CycL encoding for the following set of
facts (that is, ignoring the Grover markup altogether)? I'd like to re-draft
the listing with your answer in hand, if possible!    (04)

**Facts**
PersonX is a female who once had a sister, PersonY, another female.
PersonY was adopted (by the parents of PersonX) in 1953, and died in 1960.    (05)

**Requirements**
*satisfy "has sister" vs "plays sister role" kind of queries
*satisfy "current sisters" vs "past sisters" kinds of queries
*satisfy "natural sisters" vs "legal sisters" kinds of queries    (06)

Maybe the same challenge can be directed towards other ontologies purporting
to be able to model roles, time and symmetric relations like these?
Thanks again,
John    (07)


>-----Original Message-----
>From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>[mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of doug foxvog
>Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 11:58 AM
>To: [ontolog-forum]
>Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Grover Models
>
>
>On Wed, May 22, 2013 17:53, John McClure wrote:
>> Hi Doug, what is PersonZ all about? thanks
>
>I was trying to make sense of this confusing notation.  It appeared
>to imply a blank node, so i arbitrarily gave the blank node a name.
>
>Note that i followed my CycL with a question mark.
>
>I interpreted
>>>> [[Sister:Person:X]] for [[Person:X]]
>as possibly being intended to mean that
>    there exists a sister for X and X is a person.
>It might mean X is a sister.  Perhaps "for" means that there exists
>a filler for the slot listed in subject given the existence of
>the object.
>
>But i would not be surprised if i misguessed.
>
>-- doug f
>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>[mailto:ontolog-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of
>doug foxvog
>>>Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 8:23 AM
>>>To: [ontolog-forum]
>>>Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Grover Models
>>>
>>>
>>>On Tue, May 21, 2013 22:09, jmcclure@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
>>>
>>>> Is it actually wrong to model with prepositions, or is it
>just not a
>>>> recommended practice?
>>>
>>>So long as the terms are defined, then their names only matter so
>>>far as how confusing they are.  Prepositions are extremely general,
>>>so are quite confusing.  Their use as predicates is thus strongly
>>>recommended against.
>>>
>>>> For the "X is-sister-of Y" relation here is a graph
>>>> (the syntax [[resource-name]] connotes a wiki link, that is,
>>>a pagename in
>>>> the wiki or a subobject of a page in the wiki). Below I'm
>>>keen to easily
>>>> resolve both 'has' and "is-a" Sister kind of queries.
>>>
>>>The intended semantics below comes from far more than what is
>>>stated above.  The below seems self-inconsistent and inconsistent
>>>with the above paragraph, but since you ask below how this could
>>>be translated into another language, i will translate my guesses of
>>>what is intended into Cyc.
>>>
>>>> [[Person:X]] has [[Sister:Person:Y]]
>>>(and (isa PersonX Person) (isa PersonY Person) (sisterOf
>>>PersonX PersonY))
>>>
>>>> [[Person:Y]] has [[Sister:Person:X]]
>>>(and (isa PersonY Person) (isa Person Person) (sisterOf
>>>PersonY PersonX))
>>>
>>>> [[Person:X]] of [[Type:Sister:XY]]
>>>(and (isa PersonX Person) (isa SisterXY Sisterhood)
>>>       (groupMembers SisterXY PersonX))
>>>
>>>> [[Person:Y]] of [[Type:Sister:XY]]
>>>(and (isa PersonY Person) (isa SisterXY Sisterhood)
>>>       (groupMembers SisterXY PersonY))
>>>
>>>> [[Sister:Person:X]] of [[Type:Sister:XY]]
>>>(and (isa PersonX Person)  (isa PersonZ Person) (sisterOf
>>>PersonX PersonZ)
>>>       (isa SisterXY Sisterhood)(groupMembers SisterXY PersonZ))
>>>?
>>>
>>>> [[Sister:Person:Y]] of [[Type:Sister:XY]]Z
>>>(and (isa PersonY Person)  (isa PersonZ Person) (sisterOf
>>>PersonY PersonZ)
>>>       (isa SisterXY Sisterhood)(groupMembers SisterXY PersonZ))
>>>?
>>>
>>>> [[Sister:Person:X]] for [[Person:X]]
>>>(and (isa PersonX Person)  (isa PersonZ Person) (sisterOf
>>>PersonX PersonZ)
>>>       (sisterOf PersonX PersonZ))
>>>?
>>>
>>>> [[Sister:Person:Y]] for [[Person:Y]]
>>>(and (isa PersonY Person)  (isa PersonZ Person) (sisterOf
>>>PersonY PersonZ)
>>>       (sisterOf PersonY PersonZ))
>>>?
>>>
>>>> [[Type:Sister:XY]] of [[Type:Sister]]
>>>(and (isa SisterXY Sisterhood) (isa SisterXY Sisterhood))
>>>?
>>>
>>>> [[Type:Sister:XY]] has [[Instance:Sister:XY]]
>>>(and (isa SisterXY Sisterhood) (isa SisterXY Sisterhood)
>>>        (genls Sisterhood Individual))
>>>???
>>>
>>>> [[Instance:Sister:XY]] of [[Type:Sister:XY]]
>>>(and (isa SisterXY Sisterhood)  (genls Sisterhood Individual)
>>>        (isa SisterXY Sisterhood))
>>>???
>>>
>>>> [[Instance:Sister:XY]] for [[Person:X]]
>>>(and (isa SisterXY Sisterhood)  (genls Sisterhood Individual)
>>>        (groupMembers SisterXY PersonY) (isa PersonY Person))
>>>> [[Instance:Sister:XY]] for [[Person:Y]]
>>>>
>>>> ...describing the Sister(hood) instance further:
>>>> [[Instance:Sister:XY]] in [[Category:Legal]]
>>>(and (isa SisterXY Sisterhood)  (genls Sisterhood Individual)
>>>        (legalCategory SisterXY LegallyDefinedRelationship))
>>>
>>>> [[Instance:Sister:XY]] in [[Year:1953]]
>>>(and (isa SisterXY Sisterhood)  (genls Sisterhood Individual)
>>>        (startingDate SisterXY (YearFn 1953)))
>>>
>>>> [[Instance:Sister:XY]] on [[Day:12-01]]
>>>(and (isa SisterXY Sisterhood)  (genls Sisterhood Individual)
>>>        (implies (startingDate SisterXY (YearFn ?YEAR))
>>>                    (startingDate SisterXY
>>>                         (DayFn 1 (MonthFn December (YearFn
>?YEAR))))))
>>>
>>>> [[Instance:Sister:XY]] by [[Adoption:Person:Y]]
>>>(and  (isa SisterXY Sisterhood) (isa AdoptionPersonY Adoption)
>>>         (personAdopted AdoptionPersonY PersonY) (isa PersonY Person)
>>>         (causitiveEvent SisterXY AdoptionPersonY))
>>>
>>>> [[Instance:Sister:XY]] until [[Death:Person:Y]]
>>>(and  (isa SisterXY Sisterhood)  (genls Sisterhood Individual)
>>>        (cotemporalEvents (EndFn SisterXY) (DeathFn PersonY)
>>>        (isa PersonY Person))
>>>
>>>> ...describing Type:Sister(hood) further:
>>>> [[Type:Sister]] of [[Type:RelationshipStatus]]
>>>(isa Sisterhood Relationship)
>>>
>>>> [[Type:Sister]] in [[Category:Human]]
>>>(isa Sisterhood RelationshipBetweenHumans)
>>>
>>>> [[Type:Sister]] in [[Category:Familial]]
>>>(isa Sisterhood FamilialRelationship)
>>>
>>>> [[Type:Sister]] in [[Category:Symmetric]]
>>>(isa Sisterhood SymmetricStatus)
>>>
>>>
>>>> Any takers how other ontologies would express the
>information above?
>>>> Thanks - jmc    (08)

Grover Model	Cyc Model	Notes & Comments	Maps?
Person Relationship Sister SisterXY Adoption Category Instance Death Category:Legal Category:Symmetric Category:Familial Category:Human	Person RelationshipStatus Sisterhood Adoption Individual LegallyDefinedRelationship RelationshipBetweenHumans FamilialRelationship SymmetricStatus	List of Classes referenced below
Person:X Person:Y Sister:Person:X Sister:Person:Y Instance:Sister:XY Adoption:Person:Y Death:Person:Y	PersonX PersonY PersonZ AdoptionPersonY SisterXY	List of instances referenced below
of for until on in has by	isa sisterOf groupMembers genls startingDate personAdopted cotemporalEvents legalCategory causitiveEvent	List of properties referenced below
none	DayFn MonthFn YearFn DeathFn EndFn	List of functions referenced below
[[Person:X]] of [[Type:Person]]	PersonX isa Person		yes
[[Person:Y]] of [[Type:Person]]	PersonY isa Person		yes
	PersonZ isa Person	where did "PersonZ" come from	no
[[Person:X]] had [[Sister:Person:Y]]	PersonX sisterOf PersonY	This should be "had" because PersonY has died. my mistake. Can Cyc distinguish between past and present (as easily as this)?	no
[[Person:Y]] has [[Sister:Person:X]]	PersonY sisterOf PersonX	For this & previous, users surely find "sisterOf" odd, and "has" & "had" to be familiar	yes
[[Person:X]] of [[Type:Sister:XY]]	SisterXY isa Sisterhood SisterXY groupMembers PersonX	Why this group membership? Anyway, Grover types PersonX with a subclass of Sister that is Persons X&Y specific. Cyc model does not.	no
[[Person:Y]] of [[Type:Sister:XY]]	SisterXY isa Sisterhood SisterXY groupMembers PersonY	same as previous, for PersonY	no
[[Sister:Person:X]] of [[Type:Sister:XY]]	PersonX sisterOf PersonZ SisterXY groupMembers PersonZ	mystified by PersonZ. Anway, Grover is typing the sister-who-is-a-person the same way it types the person herself	no
[[Sister:Person:Y]] of [[Type:Sister:XY]]	PersonY sisterOf PersonZ SisterXY groupMembers PersonZ	same as previous, for PersonY	no
[[Sister:Person:X]] for [[Person:X]]	PersonX sisterOf PersonZ	Grover is identifying the person who IS the sister-who-is-a-person	no
[[Sister:Person:Y]] for [[Person:Y]]	PersonY sisterOf PersonZ	same as previous, for PersonY	no
[[Type:Sister:XY]] of [[Type:Sister]]	SisterXY isa Sisterhood		yes
[[Type:Sister:XY]] has [[Instance:Sister:XY]]	SisterXY isa Sisterhood Sisterhood genls Individual	Grover is identifying the property instance that is the only member of the subclass of Sister specific to Persons X&Y's relationship.	no
[[Instance:Sister:XY]] of [[Type:Sister:XY]]	SisterXY isa Sisterhood Sisterhood genls Individual SisterXY isa Sisterhood	Grover is typing the property instance.	no
[[Instance:Sister:XY]] for [[Person:X]]	SisterXY isa Sisterhood Sisterhood genls Individual SisterXY groupMembers PersonY		no
[[Instance:Sister:XY]] for [[Person:Y]]			no
[[Instance:Sister:XY]] in [[Category:Legal]]	SisterXY isa Sisterhood Sisterhood genls Individual SisterXY legalCategory LegallyDefinedRelationship		no
[[Instance:Sister:XY]] in [[Year:1953]]	SisterXY isa Sisterhood Sisterhood genls Individual SisterXY startingDate (YearFn 1953)		no
[[Instance:Sister:XY]] on [[Day:12-01]]	SisterXY (isa Sisterhood Sisterhood genls Individual (startingDate implies SisterXY (YearFn ?YEAR) (startingDate SisterXY (DayFn 1 (MonthFn December (YearFn ?YEAR)))))		no
[[Instance:Sister:XY]] by [[Adoption:Person:Y]]	and (isa SisterXY Sisterhood AdoptionPersonY isa Adoption AdoptionPersonY personAdopted PersonY PersonY isa Person SisterXY causitiveEvent AdoptionPersonY		no
[[Instance:Sister:XY]] until [[Death:Person:Y]]	SisterXY (isa Sisterhood Sisterhood genls Individual (EndFn cotemporalEvents SisterXY PersonY isa DeathFn PersonY Person		no
[[Type:Sister]] of [[Type:Relationship]]	Sisterhood isa RelationshipStatus		no
[[Type:Sister]] in [[Category:Human]]	Sisterhood isa RelationshipBetweenHumans		no
[[Type:Sister]] in [[Category:Familial]]	Sisterhood isa FamilialRelationship		no
[[Type:Sister]] in [[Category:Symmetric]]	Sisterhood isa SymmetricStatus		no

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